Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

ok ...

my two cents ...btw, it really is invigorating with yall on this site...so many 'personalities' involved , and I have each of you personified...hair color, height, etc....betcha most of you do too...

michael,
you are living in a dream world all ready ....any person with any type of credit history or any license or owning any real estate is ALL READY in the system...for 50 bux I can discover most of the details of your life...or anyone else's...from right here on the computer.

the part about the 'aliens' in the US...is a tough one for me. The legal ones should have access to all the benefits of being a citizen the same as the rest of us. The illegals...as the name implies, should be treated as the criminals they are, and exported. It feels to me the same as I felt about the abortion issue...who could possibly choose to murder a baby instead of allowing the little one to live ? very few, so what happened was the pros for abortion quit arguing that issue, and started arguing the issue of WHEN the fetus was an actual 'being"..re labeled the discussion.

on the other hand, the gubment pays extra for all those extra babies...babies who grow up in poverty and ghettos and apartment complex that would rival any jail.

same with the identity ...where are the lines ? boundaries to cross ? like your country with the guns, doesnt work does it ? Having had a couple of encouters with unsavory kids who were armed, I can tell you from first hand experience that , had I NOT be armed, I would have been beat and battered...and ,as it was, I managed to convince them that 'at least ONE of you is going to get shot....so , whoever that is, step up'.

hardly , what one envisions as a peaceful society.

kind got off subject here...but any time the govt instigates a policy such as the Patriot act, or gun control, or anti smoking...you can count on the further degradation of privacy ...it never ends until the people want it to end.

thanks
bob

Re: great job in bringing out the passion!
 

When this thread slows, lets start one about religion (J.K.)

Michael,

I would just like to ask,
Should a visitor to my country be treated like citizen of my country?

I could type for dys about my point of view but I don't have the time at the moment, so let me keep it simple by asking you this.

If your sister needed to borrow your vehile for a weeks time, would you allow it?
If so, what type of contract would be written?

Now, what if "Joe Bloke" came to you and said he needed to borrow your vehicle for a week?

Would you even borrow it to him?
If So, What Kind of documentation would you require?


If you required him to leave a fingerprint to verify his identity would he do it.

If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?



The great thing is he maintains his freedom in the fact that he doesn't have to enter the contract.




Don't get me wrong, I can debate both sides of this issue, but I simply can't understand why a person one does not know, should be treated like a person that one does know.
Jason

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Woody,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Here's the rub...

If I travel to another country I do as the laws of those countries advise. If I do not like an entry law I don't go to that country.

I Already said I would not go to the US BECAUSE of the law. I did NOT say I would go there and Then complain about it. Or I would go there and take your precious Jobs and send the money Back.

But let me go on a tanget with this...

What's the difference between tyraveling to the US to work and sending the money back - and - selling products into the US and getting the money that way?

Both see the US money leave the US and come to me... and when I sell a product into the US that's one less product made in the US so both see less work for US people. So why only biatch about one and not the other?

I don't know what illegals having rights has to do with this discussion, unless you are just venting.

And I am not Belly-aching. I am stating a Fact and My Response to that Fact... all stemming from Ankesh's mention of fingerprinting as ID. I suggest you re-read the Thread so you understand the Context of the topics mentioned.

Michael Ross

Come to Oregon
 

Put some of that "Instant Sun Tan" stuff in a tube on yer face an hands....
put an "EZ" behind yer name....and not only will you NOT git fingerprinted, they will give you an Oregon Drivers License....NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

But...regarding taking our Firearms away from us citizens...ain't gonna happen. At least the gummit socialists here have an inkling that "ONLY HONEST PEOPLE OBEY LAWS! So....they is lettin' us "Country folk" keep our weapons.

A sound that is a "Joy To My Ears"....at the stroke of midnight every New Years Eve....here in "OreGUN"....on the hills around me....is the "sound" of MANY 30.06's...12 Guages..."Smith & Wessons"....a few old Winchesters...some AK-47's and even 2 UZI'S....plus...2 guys with Civil War Cannons who "let em rip"....an what a GRANDIOSE SOUND of those 2 cannons riccochetting off the hills.....FREEDOM LIVES!

The day they TRY to take away or monitor our WEAPONS TO DEFEND OURSELVES is the day there is a March on the Staehouses....the likes of which history has never seen.

Take away our "right to defend ourselves"....even from our own GUMMIT? It will only happen AFTER....most of us "oldtimers" are gone and only those children who have been brainwashed by the freakin' LIBERALS are left to allow that to happen...."In The name of WHATEVER the LIBERAL AIRHEADS want to call it!'

As an aside...a small town near where I grew up in the suburbs of Chgo called "Morton Grove, Illinois"....a few years ago...MADE IT MANDATORY THAT EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAVE A FIREARM!

Well....this "dastardly anti-Liberal deed" caused many "Liberal" groups to attempt to stop it in court....to no avail. Thus...the "crime-wave" they were having in that suburb of Chgo (break-ins, hold-ups, rapes) went down to NIL....ALMOST ZERO Break-ins, Hold-Ups and Rapes!

WHY? Because Criminals aren't all that dumb. They knew the chances of them confronting a VICTIM who might have a firearm or have access to one...WAS GREAT!

So....the "word" got out and Morton Grove's crime rate is still the lowest in the country. Ya'd think other municipalities would pick up on dis.

Ohhhh....something that is NEVER REPORTED by our "Left-Wing Media" are the number of crimes that were DETERRED BECAUSE A VICTIM HAD A FIREARM! 1.2MILLION last year....or the REPORTED ones.

Ohhhh....you kin easily git a Drivers License here in Oregun if yer face is tan and yer last name ends in EX....BUT....if ANY Oregunian is asked fer an ID in any other State....you better be ready to have a 2nd form of ID cause the other States ain't accepting ANY Oregun Driver's Licenses as ID.

Long Live the ACLU.....HEIL HITLER!

Don Alm in Oregun
all those poor brainwashed

Re: great job in bringing out the passion!
 

Jason,

Thanks for the questions...


The answer is: Yes and No. And which one of those depends on what part of that country's laws we are talking about.

Yes, if you are refering to Property Rights. However, countries also have laws about buying Real Estate and foreigners. So Those laws must be adhered to. So in that part of the question the answer would be No.

But as far as criminal acts go - drink driving, theft, murder, rape, etc. - then all visitors should be treated as locals and subjected to the same punishments.

IF a person wishes to enter another country they must abide by the laws governing entry to those countries. If they do not like those laws then they don't go. Simple.

Such laws often include No Drug policies, as well as no Flora and Fauna policies. They MAY include certain Vaccination policies. Some require more strict Permission Slips (called a Visa) than others. Some have restrictions on how much alcohol or tobacco an Individual can bring in Without an Import Permit, and so on. Many such laws also apply to citizens. So the answer there is Yes.

On the issue of voting. As much as I think it is folly to vote, other's do not. So only those eligible to vote according to the laws of that country. That usually means Visitors are Not allowed to vote. So the answer becomes No.

But you know... even people in your own country aren't treated equally. I know in Australia for instance, it is Against the law to kill our native animals - kangaroos are an exception With a permit which allows only a certain number usually for culling purposes. But killing an Echidna, is off the list to everyone. Except, of course, the Aboriginal who killed one and then cooked it on the steps of parliament house - flaunting the laws right in the face of govt, who did nothing for fear of Abo outrage. (I am sure there are many so called minorities who seems to have Special Treatment in the US as well.)


No. I would not allow it. And it has nothing to do with whether the sister is a nice person or a family battle is raging. I do NOT lend to family.


My answer is still No. However, I can See what you are getting at. Though I am Not a Car Hire business.



Whether he would leave his fingerprint as ID is up to him. I cannot answer that for him. I am sure, if ALL such car hire places required it - and - he was sufficiently motivated to hire the car, then he would do it. Otherwise he would not and would find a car that didn't require fingerprint IDing.

As to the second part of the question, "If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?"...

If I required he leave a print and didn't I wouldn't hire it to him. Simple. My business. I run it as I see fit. This is along the same lines as, "If I required him to leave a $1,000 deposit and he didn't..." Again, my business, I set the rules, if he doesn't like it he can go elsewhere. Simple.


Exactly. He is NOT being forced into it.


No-one said an unknown person should be treated as a known person. I did say, however, that people entering the US who are not US citizens, are given the same treatment as a criminal is given.

Let me throw in another scenario...

Imagine you arrive to enter Disneyland. They might have Season Passes which allow holders of that pass to enter at will. They also have Daily Tickets which grant permission to enter for that day only. Those are the rules of Disneyland. All who enter abide by them.

Season pass holders might have Special Bonuses - better places to eat, a wider selection of beverage at those places, and so on; just like a Flight Club Member. Which is fine. I don't think anyone would object to that. Disneyland makes the rules and if you want to enter the place, you abide by them, or do not enter.

What if, suddenly, Disneyland decided All non-season holders had to provide a criminal background check before entering? Would people do it? What about passing a drug test? A blood alcohol test?

Some would still do it and some wouldn't. Of those who do, it doesn't mean they are better people and less likly to do something bad inside, does it? And that's really what the fingerprinting is about... Supposedly stopping bad guys getting in.

Now, if that is its purpose, then my print does Not need to be recorded. It only needs to be Cross Referenced with the Do Not Permit Entry list, and then deleted when no match is found, doesn't it?

Again. I am not saying to treat all strangers as people one knows. But adding that, just because someone is a stranger doesn't mean they are a bad person and should be treated like a criminal, does it?

Michael Ross

Re: Come to Oregon
 

Don,

Thanks for your freedom loving thoughts.

Of the states in the US I would choose to live if I moved there...

WA and OR on the west coast and New England states on the east coast. In fact, I have a "relative" that lives in Merlin, or it might be Riddle, in OR.

Gun stuff: I think you might enjoy Gun Watch http://gunwatch.blogspot.com and his other blogs (PC Watch, Greenie Watch, Education Watch, etc.) which can be found on the left link of Disecting Leftism http://dissectleft.blogspot.com

Spanish Stuff: The tide turns. Languages creep. I think it wise to learn Spanish - even if you are Not in the US.

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Bob,

Thanks for jumping in.


I think, so correct me if I am wrong, you are hinting that I am living in a made up fantasy world of unreality, right? And not a wonderful country people Dream about coming to. So I'll address the second part as I think you're accusing me of...


Bob, I am NOT disputing that the gummit already has many files available to it, which reveal much about me. Anything with a license/permit requirement sees my details on their system - car, boat, real estate. However, as it now stands, I can use CASH to buy whatever I want that does not require such record keeping, and NO-ONE knows I've got it.

The store might record the sale of a TV, but not to WHO. No-one knows what TV I own, or how many, nor how much *I* paid for them, nor when. No-one knows my Lifestyle Spending Habits when I buy with Cash.

In a cashless society, where transactions are carried out by fingerprint scanning, ALL my transactions are recorded and collated next to my name. Thus the Privacy I had when doing business with cash, is gone. And ALL my spending - not just stuff that involved govt licensing/permit requiremens - is available to be seen by Govt officials - and others who know how to access it. As the only way for it ALL to work across the board is for my fingerprint scan to be in a Central computer.

See he difference? Currently, what can be found out about me is limited to govt records forced upon me when buying those certain items. BUT, with fingerprint scanning, a central computer database is needed and ALL transactions are thus recorded.

Oh... by the way... stun guns and pepper spray for personal protection, is also illegal in this Country. Only the police may have such things. And carrying a knife for protection is Also illegal in his country. Of course, only law Abiding Citizens disarm themselves.

Michael Ross

Re: And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

Ankesh,

Thanks for adding some more.


It IS the same When taken in the Context YOU asked me the question... "if everybody had X would you do it then" type of question. And so it must be viewed in the context of my answer. Which is, "No, just because everyone in a country has X doesn't mean I will subject myself to it."

Likewise, if travelling to a Muslim country meant I had to wear Traditional clothes or my wife had to wear a Burka or Nijab or Hijab I would not go.


That's right. And like I mentioned elsewhere... IF my fingerprint was encoded into my passport and so the airport scan simply Cross-Referenced the encoded print with my scanned print, just to Verify I am who I am, and Then the scanned print is deleted off of all computer memory, I am fine with that.

I am also fine with an airport scanned print being cross referenced with existing criminal prints on file, as long as the scanned print is likewise deleted from all computer memory After the scan test is completed. But if That is the case, then such scans can be used Before a person leaves their own country, can't they? Otherwise it would require a World Wide Collaberation for ALL fingerprints of criminals to be in a central world database for it to work.

Also, you cannot discuss the tool without also discussing the Use of that tool. Fingerprint scanning and cashless transactions and IDing, can Only be used one way - with a central database and all computers linked. I WILL lose my privacy. That MUST be taken into account. And you are Ignoring that inconveient fact.

Look. I have No Problem if YOU want to live that way. My problem is that YOU - and all the other people who think the same - see your way FORCED onto me.

As it is, there are people who use their Credit Card for everything and then pay it off each month. Thus, ALL their spending is available to be seen. But that is their CHOICE. What you advocate takes that CHOICE away. And I am asking, but waiting for an answer, to why losing my privacy like this is a good thing?

Think of it like this... if what you sped you money on is Not the business of your nextdoor neighbor, why is it someone else's business who calls themselves a govt?

As much as you might like to think Creep doesn't happen, it ALWAYS does. The Unitended Consequences ALWAYS results. Which makes you question whether they were unintended in the first place.

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Nope. They are exercising their rights under our constitution AS US citizens.


You ain't seen me bein uncivil yet. It's the perfect attitude. It's our fought for and died for right to stand up and tell anyone if you don't like our nation, then we have every right to tell you to get out and don't come back.

If that's to harsh for you, to bad! I've been a soldier, I've defended my country. You speak ill of my blessed country, because your inconvienenced, then you just opened up a can of whipass.

No country has ever treated me badly. They all have their protocols. Before I go to any country I contact their embassy and find out all I need to know. The good and bad. When I land in a country, I know what I'm walking into.

My comment was to point out that their are many countries out there, where entering is a great deal harder to get into then the minor inconveinence one experiences coming into the United States.

From the Trouse
Woody Quiñones

Don, You May be Confused
 

As an aside...a small town near where I grew up in the suburbs of Chgo called "Morton Grove, Illinois"....a few years ago...MADE IT MANDATORY THAT EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAVE A FIREARM! Well....this "dastardly anti-Liberal deed" caused many "Liberal" groups to attempt to stop it in court....to no avail. Thus...the "crime-wave" they were having in that suburb of Chgo (break-ins, hold-ups, rapes) went down to NIL....ALMOST ZERO Break-ins, Hold-Ups and Rapes!"


Don I live near Morton Grove, IL...you've actually got it backwards. Morton Grove passed a law in 1981 BANNING the right to have firearms in the home.
Crime rates in the next 2 decades barely changed in Morton Grove.

However at the same time, Kennesaw Georgia, passed an ordinance mandating a firearm and ammunition must be kept in the home. In Kennesaw over the next 2 decades crime rates PLUMMETED... perhaps thats the town you were thinking of?