Re: Oo Oo.. nah...
 

Michael, I guess this is too obvious to be the correct answer, but I'll give it a shot - they survive on minimum wage because they have minimum expenses?

Larry

Delayed gratification...
 

???? :-)

How about....
 

...they become successful wherever they are - because they can't afford a plane ticket to Australia to beat-up the guy who's causing them frustration and anger??

(only kidding)

-Anon

The Advantage...
 

The immigrant arrives in a country with boundless opportunities...He has no pre-conceived notion about what is "good" or "bad'...Since he has "nothing" he views "anything" as a step up...He has a "can do" attitude and "failure" is NOT an option!...He doesn't say, "I can't do that" or "That will not work" as many native born do...He is not thinking that if he does not succeed the "government" will "bail him out"...So I guess you could say that "attitude" is everything here...

Rooster
www.rockerwisdom.com

This is also true. How is that an advantage
> though?

> It's an advantage they have the moment they
> arrive in the new country.

> Michael Ross




"Don’t get ripped off!"...

Re: The Advantage...how about lower expectations (DNO)
 

Ego
 

Migrants don't bring a fancy lifestyle with them. They have no fake standard to maintain to impress others because no one knows them. This helps them keep their ego in check. e.g., I have a masters degree like the father from Poland. What would my peers think if I used my masters degree as a window washer...

Re: Migrant Success Secrets
 

They knew what they wanted and did what they could to get there.

Phil

Are you looking for...
 

Hi Micheal -

while I have my own theories, are you looking for "lack of debt" - they live within their means? And in conjunction with that, have a very different standard of what it is to be successful - don't have the "keep up with the Jones's mentality. Can get by with much less?

Tam

Re: How about....
 

> ...they become successful wherever they are
> - because they can't afford a plane ticket
> to Australia to beat-up the guy who's
> causing them frustration and anger??

Darn it, anon...

Keep going with that line of reasoning... they dream of buying the ticket one day and ambushing him with a sock full of pennies.

Very funny, and I'm scraping together my change right now.

-Erik

the objectivity of the outsider
 

One advantage an outsider has is the ability to more clearly see the obvious opportunities and problems unhampered by the judgement and cultural baggage of the insider.

Whenever we label ourselves (American, Christian, lawyer, mother) we assume a set of shared preconceptions as the price of that membership. These judgments and unwritten rules color and warp external reality to fit the picture the group has of it's position in the world.

The outsider has (at least for a limited time) the opportunity to see things more objectively.

They Risk & Sacrifice....
 

Okay... try this...

"They are able to survive on a minimum wage job because they...Sacrifice" They may not want to... after all who does if they don't have to... but they must... so they do. And the self-discipline that was forced on them becomes a habit that turns into a very big advantage.

Steve Ski

LOL! Count me in, fellas! (DNO)
 

Re: Oo Oo.. nah...
 

> WHY are they able to survive on the minimum
> wage job?

> "They are able to survive on a minimum
> wage job because they... (insert thing
> here)"

... have no debt and stay out of debt?

Assuming they aren't caught up in one of those scams where they end up working in sweatshops to pay of someone who smuggled them into the country...

When they enter their new home, they (presumably) have no debts. And, assuming they aren't coming from another capitalist society, it probably hasn't been ingrained in them that they "have" to go into debt (i.e., for cars, homes, higher education, business start-up, etc.).

Am I close? Do I have a clue? 8^}

Advantage is 'No Advantages'
 

The advantage a migrant has is the advantages natural borns have. 'Nothing' is the advantage. It's like starting a new life. $20 is a big deal when you're starting from zero. Things only get better. There's only one way - UP!
After all these discussions, anyone here wants to be a migrant? :-)

Alexander
Marketing Architect




HypnoticProfit.com

Re: Succeed or die?
 

In the words of the Big Bopper,

"I KNOWWWWWWW What I Want!"

Re: Could it be...
 

> Steve,

> I agree with you. Its like a child who
> believes in dreams and make believe. They
> believe without a doubt that dreams do come
> true because they have not had their minds
> closed by adult thinking.

> Migrants give up everything they have:
> friends, relatives, familiar surroundings
> and knowledge of how their part of the world
> works.... for..

> A better life. "The land of
> opportunity".

> Why?

> Because they don't know they can't.

> Rick Hunter

Hi Rick, It seems that Michael is looking for something else. Something they and the rich share that most never get until late in life if at all. What is it about Karol's post that implies it?

The fact that his parents risk everything they had for a chance to create a better life?

Or that they had the self-discipline to stay focused and do what they knew would bring them closer to their goals?

Are Migrants and the rich both risk takers while their offspring often are not willing to assume risk?

Do the rich and Migrants practice self discipline while often times their children don't? Sure makes you think doesn't it?

Steve Ski




Wealth, Science, and the "Law of Attraction"

Re: Migrant Success Secrets
 

> There seems to be an imbalance to success
> when migrants are added to the numbers.

> From the outside, migrants appear to have a
> higher proportion of successful people from
> their numbers than people born within the
> country.

> And this out-of-whack ratio applies to all
> western countries - migrants succeed in
> Australia more than Australians, migrants
> succeed in the US more than people born in
> the US, migrants succeed in the UK more than
> people born there.

> We can, in an initial and dismissive way,
> attribute this to some kind of work ethic -
> they work harder.

> And while that may be the case, that would
> be an observed result of something else.

> In other words... they tend to do jobs other
> people don't want to do. They tend to do
> menial tasks. "Idiot work." Often,
> it is thought, they do these jobs because
> they don't have the formal qualifications to
> do anything better (but what does
> "better" mean?).

> And while that may be true, there are many
> natural born citizens who also work those
> jobs and who do not succeed.

> Without formal qualifications many start
> their own little businesses. But again, if
> starting a business was all that mattered
> than plenty of natural born citizens would
> also go on to the success migrants do. But
> it doesn't happen.

> As a group, more successes come from
> migrants than from other groups.

> Why is it so?

> There is one thing all migrants have in
> common that gives them an advantage over
> natural born citizens. It is something all
> natural born citizens can also have, if they
> want to.

> Before I reveal it I want to hear what
> others think it is...

> So why do migrants tend to succeed more so
> than natural born citizens?

> Michael Ross

OK Michael maybe this is a little off. Could it be because they are new to the country they don't know what to expect and haven't yet learned the 3 most dangerous words (I know that) therefore they simply have a opened mind while others are close minded thus limited in their choices? The answer must be so obvious that I must be missing the boat because I just don't know any better or just can't see it because I'm looking at things through colored lens?

Steve Ski


Wealth, Science, and the "Law of Attraction"

the objectivity, should you decide to accept it, is...
 

> One advantage an outsider has is the ability
> to more clearly see the obvious
> opportunities and problems unhampered by the
> judgement and cultural baggage of the
> insider.

Good point. Already covered, though.

It is true they would seem to be able to see the opportunities more clearly. Yet for those who can't we have publications which reveal them. So that newcomers edge is not so big.

Michael Ross

You're getting closer...
 

> Hi Rick, It seems that Michael is looking
> for something else. Something they and the
> rich share that most never get until late in
> life if at all. What is it about Karol's
> post that implies it?

> The fact that his parents risk everything
> they had for a chance to create a better
> life?

> Or that they had the self-discipline to stay
> focused and do what they knew would bring
> them closer to their goals?

> Are Migrants and the rich both risk takers
> while their offspring often are not willing
> to assume risk?

> Do the rich and Migrants practice self
> discipline while often times their children
> don't?

Getting warmer. What would they practice self-discipline in though? Not eating chocolate? :o)

Here's a hint... two people in this thread have now got it. :o)

Michael Ross

The Advantage of No Advantage
 

> The advantage a migrant has is the
> advantages natural borns have. 'Nothing' is
> the advantage. It's like starting a new
> life. $20 is a big deal when you're starting
> from zero. Things only get better. There's
> only one way - UP!
> After all these discussions, anyone here
> wants to be a migrant? :-)

Alexander:

I'd like to see you take this line of thought further.

Migrants are starting from zero - as you say. So why it that an advantage over most people in society?

As for wanting to be a migrant?

Not sure people would want to be a migrant per se. As that would mean leaving their country of birth. And a lot of people are quite happy living in he country they were born in.

However, I feel a lot would actually like to start anew from where the migrant starts. Why would that be?

Michael Ross

Succeed or die or...
 

They know they want to live in the new country. They think life will be better there.

Often, life in their new country is better - even if they have moved there from another western country.

Even if they struggle they will not die. Even if the government won't let them have welfare they will not die. There are plenty of charities to assist in a time of need.

So "succeed or die" is not reality.

And it isn't something other people experience later in life...

Michael Ross

Getting warmer...
 

> Michael, I guess this is too obvious to be
> the correct answer, but I'll give it a shot

Hey, don't discount the obvious. I said the answer was simple...

> - they survive on minimum wage because they
> have minimum expenses?

This is true. Why do they have minimum expenses? What is it about their expenses that differs from other people's? Why is that an advantage?

Michael Ross

Delayed gratification vs Instant gratification
 

Good answer...

WHY would having delayed gratification be an advantage?

Michael Ross

They Risk & Sacrifice & Other Catastrophes
 

> "They are able to survive on a minimum
> wage job because they...Sacrifice" They
> may not want to... after all who does if
> they don't have to... but they must... so
> they do. And the self-discipline that was
> forced on them becomes a habit that turns
> into a very big advantage.

Steve:

I like your thinking... what is forced upon them by their situation becomes habit.

Let me ask... what are they sacraficing? And why are they being forced to?

Michael Ross

The Advantage of attitude
 

This "attitude" is too Tony-Robbin-esk for my liking.

In a western country there is always a fall back safety net. It might not be the government. It might be a charity of some kind. Whatever it is, it is there.

Remember too... this "thing" is something most people do eventually get later in life but it is too late for them to do anything with - mostly.

I don't see this "attitude" in older people. In fact, if anything, they become more welfare focused cause they just gots to get their "pension."

Michael Ross

Ego is not a dirty word...
 

> Migrants don't bring a fancy lifestyle with
> them. They have no fake standard to maintain
> to impress others because no one knows them.
> This helps them keep their ego in check.
> e.g., I have a masters degree like the
> father from Poland. What would my peers
> think if I used my masters degree as a
> window washer...

How is this an advantage?

Michael Ross

Not the "know what you want" thing again...
 

> They knew what they wanted and did what they
> could to get there.

Phil:

This is true. And perhaps shows that whatever you truly want to do, you can. This embeds on their psyche and maybe makes them a better success.

But the element is something other people eventually get in later life. And I don't know many older people who sudddenly get a this "attitude"...

Michael Ross

Missing the boat of the obvious
 

> OK Michael maybe this is a little off. Could
> it be because they are new to the country
> they don't know what to expect and haven't
> yet learned the 3 most dangerous words (I
> know that) therefore they simply have a
> opened mind while others are close minded
> thus limited in their choices? The answer
> must be so obvious that I must be missing
> the boat because I just don't know any
> better or just can't see it because I'm
> looking at things through colored lens?

Okay... the answer is rather obvious. When you find out what it is you will think, "Of course." And you will see HOW it gives migrants the tremendous advantage it does.

I deduce it is hard to see because it would be like a fish trying to imagine a state of "no water." All his life all he knows is water. Trying to figure out "no water" is tough - not impossible but tough.

Michael Ross

What I'm looking for...
 

> Hi Micheal -

> while I have my own theories,

I'd like to hear your own theories. Throw them out for all of us to see. Each "reason" is another ingredient for the info-soup.

are you
> looking for "lack of debt" - they
> live within their means? And in conjunction
> with that, have a very different standard of
> what it is to be successful - don't have the
> "keep up with the Jones's mentality.
> Can get by with much less?

That's a good answer. Why is that an advantage?

Michael Ross

Good try...
 

> ... have no debt and stay out of debt?

> When they enter their new home, they
> (presumably) have no debts. And, assuming
> they aren't coming from another capitalist
> society, it probably hasn't been ingrained
> in them that they "have" to go
> into debt (i.e., for cars, homes, higher
> education, business start-up, etc.).

Actually, even if they are coming from another capitalist society, they do start out without debt, don't they?

Why is that an advantage?

Michael Ross

Re: Delayed gratification...
 

Hi Amber!

I am not guessing, I am just reading....

Saw you post and got all excited!

:-)

With Love,

Julie

Re: Taking control
 

> This is also true. How is that an advantage
> though?

> It's an advantage they have the moment they
> arrive in the new country.

> Michael Ross

Michael,

It's an advantage because they don't have a choice. They know what they want, that is survive, and they do whatever it takes to get there.

We who have been born in a country have so many choices ... sometimes too many. We're constantly being bombarded with choices.

With migrants, it's cut and dry. Survive.

So I stand by my answer: "They knew what they wanted and did what they could to get there."

So what do you think Michael? Warm or cold?

Pete Godfrey

Colder
 

> It's an advantage because they don't have a
> choice. They know what they want, that is
> survive, and they do whatever it takes to
> get there.

They do have a choice about whether they do whatever it takes. They don't have to do whatever it takes because there is always welfare.

Granted, being forced to "survive" does give them a "skill" which they can then apply to other areas. The skill of ACTION.

But this "element" - which two people in this thread have gotten and which I have not told them they have gotten, yet (because I think it was a guess and not deduced so I want them to reason it out) - is not a skill or ability.

It is also something most people get later on in life. And "doing whatever it takes" is not something most people eventually get later in life.

> With migrants, it's cut and dry. Survive.

> So I stand by my answer: "They knew
> what they wanted and did what they could to
> get there."

> So what do you think Michael? Warm or cold?

Cold(er).

I'm glad you stood by your answer, though.

I asked about the advantage so you would reason it out. The reasons would make it clearer. And show why you chose your answer. Could help other people too. (Also shows you weren't just having a guess :o))

Michael Ross

Re: Colder
 

Michael,

If I wasn't thinking before, I certainly am now. I'm going to sleep on this one.

Most people eventually get it later in life eh?

Now, what does that mean?

Thanks for the thread Michael.

Pete Godfrey

> They do have a choice about whether they do
> whatever it takes. They don't have to do
> whatever it takes because there is always
> welfare.

> Granted, being forced to "survive"
> does give them a "skill" which
> they can then apply to other areas. The
> skill of ACTION.

> But this "element" - which two
> people in this thread have gotten and which
> I have not told them they have gotten, yet
> (because I think it was a guess and not
> deduced so I want them to reason it out) -
> is not a skill or ability.

> It is also something most people get later
> on in life. And "doing whatever it
> takes" is not something most people
> eventually get later in life.

> Cold(er).

> I'm glad you stood by your answer, though.

> I asked about the advantage so you would
> reason it out. The reasons would make it
> clearer. And show why you chose your answer.
> Could help other people too. (Also shows you
> weren't just having a guess :o))

> Michael Ross

Is it....
 

...that they end up living better than they ever thought possible? That's about the only thing left in Karol's response that could be construed as a guess :-/ .

Okay - so who was the other dude that hit on the right answer?

Man ... this is driving me nutso.

-Anon

They have no "stuff"
 

> Okay... the answer is rather obvious. When
> you find out what it is you will think,
> "Of course." And you will see HOW
> it gives migrants the tremendous advantage
> it does.

> I deduce it is hard to see because it would
> be like a fish trying to imagine a state of
> "no water." All his life all he
> knows is water. Trying to figure out
> "no water" is tough - not
> impossible but tough.

> Michael Ross

Okay, Michael, I'm hoping I've been lurking here on this thread long enough to see the point you are driving at.

Immigrants--most of them, anyway--arrive without any "stuff" (as the great philosopher and observer-of-life, George Carlin, puts it). Consequently, they don't have to divert any of their meager incomes to "maintaining and upgrading" their stuff.

Example: If I drove a beat-up wreck of a car, I'd "have to" spend money on repairs to keep it running... or buy a newer car (probably on credit).

Without having to spend money on maintaining any "stuff," immigrants are able to invest their meager incomes in themselves (e.g. education) and in their dreams (e.g. entrepreneurial undertakings or savings/investment accounts).

Such investment becomes habit... which leads to long term financial success.

In a similar vein, many "native" citizens come to the conclusion late in life that they need to invest in themselves--instead of buying more stuff--if they are going to be able to enjoy comfortable retirements.

Unfortunately, most of them reach this conclusion with too few years left to be able to turn their "spend, spend, spend" lives around.

Right?

~~Steve Rollison

Re: Ego is not a dirty word...
 

> How is this an advantage?

> Michael Ross

Here is the advantage I was thinking of:

If you're a migrant far away from home, the voices of others (e.g., Mom and Dad, Peers, etc) have less of an impact so working a less glamourous job becomes easier because you're not surrounded by negativity from outside sources.

Regarding ego, I don't think it's a dirty word. It can go either way. Ego can push you to do things you might never try without the "attitude". An unchecked Ego however, might cause you to surround yourself with yes men and shut out good advice from others...

Hope this made sense.

Jack

Re: Delayed gratification vs Instant gratification
 

> Good answer...

> WHY would having delayed gratification be an
> advantage?

They probably don't have grandiose expectations ...and don't take anything for granted....even tomorrow.

So, they practice frugality and save part of their earnings... and can then, much easier, take advantage of an opportunity than if they are encumbered with debt.

They live in the present and are content to have their basic needs met -- and are not as materialistic.

They find joy in simple pleasures and are more easily satisfied.

Carpe Diem! They seize the day, and make each one count... and live it with purpose.

They aren't lazy! :-)

~ Amber

Hi Julie!
 

Good to see you posting!

I'm excited too!!! :-)

Bring me up to date on your life when you get a free minute or two... Love ya, Amber

> Hi Amber!

> I am not guessing, I am just reading....

> Saw you post and got all excited!

> :-)

> With Love,

> Julie

You asked for it
 

Hi Michael,

> I'd like to hear your own theories. Throw
> them out for all of us to see. Each
> "reason" is another ingredient for
> the info-soup.

Okay, you asked for it so if I ramble - you're taking the blame.

Having nothing (especially debt) can be very liberating. Think about it, many imigrants come from extremely poor countries looking for a better life and don't take for granted all that we do. Instead of spending their earnings to pay debt(for items that could be considered luxeries) or keep up with the Joneses, they invest in themselves and the basics. There are so many things people think they need simply because the have always had it or becuase someone else has it.

Here's an example of the difference. A kid moves out of his parents home to live on his own. He gets cable, an entertainment center, new car, eats out, etc. and goes into debt - why? Because that is what his parents did but what he doesn't consider that either they are carrying a lot of debt (and that money could be spent elsewhere) or that they slowly worked up to the point where they were able to afford the extras. Then he sees other people have things and he thinks he needs them to.

An imigrant comes to this country with nothing (and usually not having had all these extras) and worries about the basics. He then invests in himself.

Tam


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