Wow! Great stuff, Michael...
 

Some brief, scattered comments, since I'm still waking up:

Thanks for pointing me to www.radio-locator.com, where I can at least get phone #s for all the local stations.

I am aware of "remnant" advertising (thanks to Ted Nicholas) but hadn't thought of it in regards to this situation.

I really like the "'Christmas gift' to the community" idea, especially if it's connected with the local shelters and social service agencies. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing the local Salvation Army and Market Street Mission would be good prospects, too (assuming no one already has a similar arrangement w/ them).

Tom says a lot of his business is by referral, which is why he doesn't do much advertising. (He may need to rethink that strategy now.) However, he could stand to systematize the referrals a bit more and perhaps add a couple more methods for requesting them. We talked about it a little a few weeks ago, and I drafted a combination Thank You letter & announcement of new-&-improved Referral Program (offering money & discounts). He liked it OK, but, again, we need to get his current list into a database. (I'm pushing ACT!, but I've also recommended putting the basic info into an Excel spreadsheet just to get going.) On the other hand, he could be testing a new, "formal" referral system on new patients -- that is, assuming he's getting any...

Regarding the guy who's going bankrupt, based on my talks with Tom, he already approached the guy 2 or 3 weeks ago, and he was quite amenable to selling his list to Tom (as well as endorsing Tom to them) with nothing up front. I had given Tom 2 or 3 arrangements to approach the guy with, but I don't remember what they decided on. The thing is, I don't think the guy knows exactly when he's going to "hang it up" (sometime in the next few months), so Tom can't really pursue anything there, yet.

As for the computer stuff, I already mentioned Tom's reluctance to get into a lease situation, although I still think that may be his best option. I have also suggested he have a college student (or mature & computer-savvy HS student) do the data entry. Right now, though, he is still hoping that his wife can arrange for an underutilized secretary or someone from her office to do it on their computers. While that would be great (if they can do it), it would probably only work as an initial effort with something like MS Access or Excel. If they did it in a contact manager like ACT!, the software would have to stay installed on their computer (not good), and I don't think there's an easy/inexpensive way to transfer the data elsewhere. I'll have to look into this more.

One of the problems with the whole "Free Eye Exam" thing is that Tom doesn't control the exams. As I understand it, the optometrist uses Tom's facilities in exchange for rent or some sort of percentage, but he (Ramy) can charge what he likes. He charges $80, which seems to be standard for the area. Getting him to agree to the "$29 Exams on Fridays only" took a bit of convincing, and in fact he will be raising it soon. I should mention that Ramy is fairly young and not long out of school, so he is still learning the business side of things. But, he's pretty sharp and seems to understand and be "on board" with the marketing stuff he's heard me talking with Tom about. However, as much as he might like to give discounts & free exams to get people in the door, he's gotta eat, too. (Not to mention, pay off those school bills.) I suppose maybe Tom could offer to give Ramy $X for any free exam patient who buys anything, but as I've said, Tom's cash flow is barely a trickle as it is.

As long as I'm laying out the negatives, as you may have inferred from things I've said before, Tom seems to be in a bit of analysis paralysis. And he has admitted this himself. He knows that you (generally) need to spend money to make money, even if it's a limited test of an ad or a mailing. But, with business being SOOOO slow and bills still needing to be paid, there just ain't much to play with. He figured that those recent ads (and especially the one I wrote) that ran in the biweekly paper I mentioned should have pulled a decent response, if anything would. But, they didn't. I think he's pretty convinced that the economy just sucks and nobody's spending money -- or, at least, not on eye care and eyewear. If only I'd gotten together with Tom a few months earlier, I could have helped him build up his business enough so that the recession (or whatever we're in) didn't matter.

F.y.i., I hope to speak with Tom either this afternoon or tomorrow, before he leaves for his Thanksgiving trip. (Lest anyone think he's wasting money on an expensive trip, he's just visiting family in Ohio.) Hopefully, I can get him to seriously consider some of these terrific ideas you guys have shared. But, don't stop now...! ;->

Many thanks,
Chris

> Chris
> 1)Offer FREE eye exams for a limited time,
> by appointment only to anyone who needs the
> gift of enhanced eyesight.
> 2)This will entitle you to PSA's thru local
> TV and radio stations. You can find any
> radio station at www.radio-locator.com
> 3)Talk to radio stations and newspapers
> about being put on list for
> "remnant" advertising. This is
> unsold inventory that's dumped at the last
> minute for a fraction of the cost.
> 4)Press release announcing Tom's
> "Christmas gift" to the community,
> which provides the "hook" the
> media desires before running a story.
> 5)Have Tom contact local shelters and social
> service agencies. They provide vouchers for
> exams and glasses that the govt. pays for
> low income people.
> 6)Contact Tom's competitor who is going
> bankrupt.
> propose a 50/50 JV of his customer list that
> is hopefully computerized. An endorsement
> letter from bankrupt merchant would be
> optimal.
> 7)Start a referral program from new leads
> offering discounts for new paying referrals.
> They've already had the exam and this will
> help subsidize the products Tom recommends.
> 8)Go thru his old list, calling everyone to
> inform of free exams, referral program
> etc... Let these people know they get first
> bite at the apple before the public is made
> aware of upcoming offer...ONLY if they act
> now.
> 9)Hire a college student to perform data
> entry for Tom.

> Of all the ideas presented, this and remnant
> adv.will be the only costs incurred. As you
> know, he will then have a relatively free
> way to communicate with prospects to inform
> and market.
> 10)Please wish Tom a Merry Christmas for me.
> I'm confident if he follows these
> suggestions, he'll have a good one also.
> Michael Madden

Re: A Marketing Challenge For Y'All
 

Chris,

I don't know about marketing but one thing I've noticed that no one has mentioned in all the good advice given and that is why don't you offer to do the computer/database work as a service to Tom. Since he doesn't have a computer and can't afford one right now and since you do and seem to be very familiar with Tom's needs why not offer this service to him. Also you may be able to offer this service to the other businesses in the mall. Just my 2 cents worth.

Ken
> Hi Everyone,

> I have a marketing problem/situation that
> I'm hoping you all can help me out with. A
> friend (and potential client), Tom, is an
> optician with a store in a good-size outdoor
> mall. He has been there about 7 years, if
> memory serves. It's a prime location, right
> in the middle of town (Northern NJ), but he
> says that business has been particularly
> slow for all the tenants the past few
> months. Frankly, he is barely paying his
> bills. He acknowledges that November is
> usually a slow month in his industry, but as
> I said, this has been going on for awhile.

> Tom has a very nice store, well lit with
> very nice displays. He prides himself on
> carrying only quality merchandise at
> reasonable prices and is very
> patient-focussed. He is very friendly and
> recognizes regular patients by name, knows
> their families, occupations, hobbies, etc.,
> and keeps detailed records. Overall, a very
> classy operation.

> I have presented him with many good
> marketing ideas/concepts (a la Jay Abraham
> & others), which he likes and sees the
> value in. The main problem (and his main
> weakness) is that he is slightly
> technophobic and doesn't own a computer, so
> naturally he doesn't have his patient info
> in any kind of database that can be used to
> do mailings. I've given him some advice on
> hardware & software, and between Tom's
> wife and I, we have convinced him that he
> needs to do this. (It will be a major
> project, but I recommended he start with a
> small segment -- namely, the more affluent
> patients.) But, he doesn't feel he can spare
> the bucks, at this point. Plus, he has some
> aversion to leasing a PC or laptop, partly
> because he doesn't want to get locked into a
> 2-year contract and then go out of business
> in 3 months....

> He doesn't do much advertising, though he
> has recently been testing display ads in a
> very small, bi-weekly, local paper that
> targets some of the more affluent
> communities in our area. They haven't pulled
> very well, so Tom let me design a new ad to
> test, which just came out last week. The
> headline is "Are You Suffering From Any
> Of These Eye Problems?", followed by 5
> bullets, four lines of text urging regular
> examinations and pro-active eyecare; then
> his name/address/phone & logo, flanked
> by photos of him and the optometrist. The
> bottom is two coupons, one for "$29 Eye
> Exams (reg. $80) every Friday" and one
> for a Holiday Special of $50 off lenses w/
> purchase of new frames. I followed all the
> rules (I think) about fonts/typeface and
> color. We both thought it would work pretty
> well, but tonight he said he hasn't had ANY
> response.

> Tom continues to blame the economy in
> general (national, not just local) for the
> poor business and doesn't really blame me
> for the new ad not pulling, but I'm not sure
> that's the only problem. In fact, if we
> could just do some mailings to current and
> inactive patients, I think we could get him
> some business. Since this doesn't look like
> it's gonna happen real soon, I'm struggling
> to come up with something that's going to
> bring him some cash flow before he decides
> to pack it in.

> So, after doing some heavy thinking since
> talking with Tom earlier this evening, here
> are the 3 things I've come up with. 1)
> Consider getting a small, Small Business
> loan; although, I don't think he'll like
> that one, especially since another local
> optician is going out of business and is
> heavily in debt. 2) Something we've already
> discussed, which is to mail to other
> businesses' customers/clients, either as a
> JV or endorsed mailing or renting the
> list(s), etc. Of course, with any mailing
> there are printing & postage costs, but
> even a limited, test-mailing might prove
> worthwhile, then re-invest in more mailings,
> and so on. Also, I figure we may be able to
> trade for Tom's products/services or perhaps
> for future use of his list. And that brings
> me to... 3) Barter. I was just reading some
> Jay Abraham materials on barter, and it
> dawned on me that this might be just the
> ticket. We might be able to barter Tom's
> products/services (at retail) to pay off
> some of his bills. And, we could barter them
> to local radio stations (and maybe newspaper
> or local TV/cable) in exchange for
> advertising.

> Now, my questions for you guys & gals
> are:
> 1) Does anyone have any other suggestions
> for Tom and/or for his fellow tenants at the
> mall (maybe a group event)?
> 2) Any ideas why my ad didn't work? (I'll
> see if I can get a copy from Tom or the
> paper, so I can scan it in.)
> 3) Have any of you done any trades/bartering
> of products/services like I described, and
> what were your experiences?
> 4) As for radio & other media, does it
> make more sense to approach the
> Marketing/Advertising Director to suggest
> the barter deal, or should I go straight to
> the General Manager? And, what is the best
> place to get the up-to-date names/numbers
> for these people? (Yellow Pages doesn't even
> list all the local stations.)
> 5) Any recommendations on how (not) to
> "pitch" these people?

> To all those who have read thru all of this,
> you do me great honor. I greatly appreciate
> any suggestions or input any of you have.

> Best Regards,
> Chris Harris

here goes... something, at least
 

Chris:

Optician's are like dentists... NO-ONE cares until THEY think they need one.

It will take a LOT of marketing to educate people to use one. Even people with bad eyes will NOT go to one - just like people will NOT go to a dentist even with bad teeth or a bad tooth-ache (not until it is unbearable).

Children are VERY self-conscious. And wearing glasses is about the worst thing that can happen to them - in their opinion. Kids don't want to be called four-eyes and cop the rest of the baggage that goes with wearing glasses. They wll have a high resistance to any "tests."

Parents don't want to discover their little precious is not perfect and has defective eyes. And won't take their child for a test "just to see" if anything is wrong. And only the responsible parents will take their child if they think there is something wrong.

And if the parents actions are anything to go by - fob the kid off to day care so they can get back to work - then the market of responsible parents is way way down.

Something which I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is: You ran an ad which had to be read, targeting people who had bad eyes. So the very people the ad may have been meant for, couldn't read the ad.

Coupled with the "there's nothing wrong with me, and if there is I don't want to know" attitude most people have, it is not surprisng the ad did not do too well.

Also, if you want to be the optician people come to to get new glasses - like if their old ones break - then running an ad which talks about eye problems won't do any good.

From all appearances, Tom's business is a "I'll go to it when I need it" business. Exactly like a dentist (how often do you, or anyone reading, go to a dentist just for a checkup?)

So in that sense, any marketing needs to be designed to let people know he exists for at time they may need him.

Hugh Gaugler showed his flyer a few months back. This flyer generated a lot of business and did NOT bother with wants, benefits, etc. It targetted people by asking them to call him if they needed some work.

Modifying it to suit Tom, the flyer would read something like this (from memory):

Hello,

My name is Tom Browneyes. I provide all kinds of eyewear services from eye tests to filling prescriptions and replacing and repairing glasses. If you need glasses, have glasses that need some work, or would like your eyes tested, please call me.

Sincerely,

Tom Browneyes
555-5555

A few other things...

Remember in The Great Ideas Letter, the bit about the store that analysed its trading hours coupled with revenue?

Could Tom spend one of the closed/off days doing all mobile work?

Could Tom charge a subscription fee to provide his services - pay now, and a larger sum, and you get FAST priority service.

Does Tom try and get people onto a regular supply of glasses cleaning fluid?

Michael Ross


The Great Ideas Letter

Re: A Marketing Challenge For Y'All
 

Hey Ken,

That's a valid question. I hope I can answer it w/o sounding like a jerk. Much as I would like to help Tom in this area, too, there are a few reasons why I'm not.

One is the whole hardware/software issue. If he decides to go with the contact management software like I'm urging him to, then the data entry has to be done on his (not yet existing) computer, because that's where the software will be installed. Even if I had a copy of ACT! myself (which I will eventually be getting for my own business), I don't think there's a way to extract one set of data to disk and import it into another copy of the software. You can export ACT! data into Excel with an add-on piece of software, but you can't go from Excel to ACT! (Keep in mind, ACT! is much more complex and less common than Microsoft products and others that are found on millions of other PCs.)

So, why don't we just select a couple hundred patients and put the basic info into Excel to do a test mailing? I've mentioned that to Tom, and I think the reason he didn't jump at it is because of the time involved in going thru the files and doing the data entry, and the fact that he would have to do the data entry again (or pay someone to do it) when he got ACT!. So, why don't I offer to do it for him? That leads into my second reason...

Positioning. As a marketing consultant, I want to position myself as someone who strategizes, develops the "programming" (not a computer term, in this case), and writes copy (ads, salesletters, etc.). Ideally, the "busy work" should be done by someone in my client's company who is dedicated (P/T or F/T, depending on the case) to following my instructions. If they don't have someone like that (as will be the case with smaller businesses like Tom's), then I might have to help out a little more. But, for something like data entry, it should be easy enough to find a student or hire a temp to do it. I personally charge $200/hr for consultation (though I prefer contingency arrangements); even if I didn't charge Tom that much for data entry, does it make sense for me (or for my image as a "professional") to do work that someone else can competently do for $10/hr? This leads to a third reason...

Simply put, my time can be better spent elsewhere, whether it's developing materials for Tom or for another client, or working on another project, or furthering my own education with books, tapes, & the like.

I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant or selfish, but those are the types of things I have to think about, now.

Regards,
Chris

> Chris,

> I don't know about marketing but one thing
> I've noticed that no one has mentioned in
> all the good advice given and that is why
> don't you offer to do the computer/database
> work as a service to Tom. Since he doesn't
> have a computer and can't afford one right
> now and since you do and seem to be very
> familiar with Tom's needs why not offer this
> service to him. Also you may be able to
> offer this service to the other businesses
> in the mall. Just my 2 cents worth.

> Ken

Re: here goes... something, at least
 

Michael,

Excellent observations about many, if not most, people's behavior, when it comes to dental and vision care. It's generally REactive -- and then, usually only when it's really bad -- rather than PROactive.

I read your post just before leaving to see Tom, and I thought you had an interesting point about the ad, so I mentioned it to him. He disagreed -- we weren't targetting people who were functionally blind, after all! ;-> (Just f.y.i., the 5 symptoms given in the ad were Computer-related Eyestrain, Ghost Images or Trouble Focussing, Unusual Light-Sensitivity, Constant Scratchiness, and Floating Spots.) He makes a good point, too, though I wouldn't have so readily dismissed your observation (no pun intended). Who knows...?

Interesting suggestion about using flyers to get his name in front of people. I'll have to think this one over and discuss it with him.

One point of clarification about the subscription fee idea: is that fee for the "on call" service?

As for the cleaning fluid, I know he's mentioned it before, but I'm not sure how hard he pushes it.

Thanks for chiming in, Michael. I was hoping you would.

Regards,
Chris

> Chris:

> Optician's are like dentists... NO-ONE cares
> until THEY think they need one.

> It will take a LOT of marketing to educate
> people to use one. Even people with bad eyes
> will NOT go to one - just like people will
> NOT go to a dentist even with bad teeth or a
> bad tooth-ache (not until it is unbearable).

> Children are VERY self-conscious. And
> wearing glasses is about the worst thing
> that can happen to them - in their opinion.
> Kids don't want to be called four-eyes and
> cop the rest of the baggage that goes with
> wearing glasses. They wll have a high
> resistance to any "tests."

> Parents don't want to discover their little
> precious is not perfect and has defective
> eyes. And won't take their child for a test
> "just to see" if anything is
> wrong. And only the responsible parents will
> take their child if they think there is
> something wrong.

> And if the parents actions are anything to
> go by - fob the kid off to day care so they
> can get back to work - then the market of
> responsible parents is way way down.

> Something which I haven't seen mentioned in
> this thread is: You ran an ad which had to
> be read, targeting people who had bad eyes.
> So the very people the ad may have been
> meant for, couldn't read the ad.

> Coupled with the "there's nothing wrong
> with me, and if there is I don't want to
> know" attitude most people have, it is
> not surprisng the ad did not do too well.

> Also, if you want to be the optician people
> come to to get new glasses - like if their
> old ones break - then running an ad which
> talks about eye problems won't do any good.

> From all appearances, Tom's business is a
> "I'll go to it when I need it"
> business. Exactly like a dentist (how often
> do you, or anyone reading, go to a dentist
> just for a checkup?)

> So in that sense, any marketing needs to be
> designed to let people know he exists for at
> time they may need him.

> Hugh Gaugler showed his flyer a few months
> back. This flyer generated a lot of business
> and did NOT bother with wants, benefits,
> etc. It targetted people by asking them to
> call him if they needed some work.

> Modifying it to suit Tom, the flyer would
> read something like this (from memory):
> Hello,

> My name is Tom Browneyes. I provide all
> kinds of eyewear services from eye tests to
> filling prescriptions and replacing and
> repairing glasses. If you need glasses, have
> glasses that need some work, or would like
> your eyes tested, please call me.

> Sincerely,

> Tom Browneyes
> 555-5555 A few other things...

> Remember in The Great Ideas Letter, the bit
> about the store that analysed its trading
> hours coupled with revenue?

> Could Tom spend one of the closed/off days
> doing all mobile work?

> Could Tom charge a subscription fee to
> provide his services - pay now, and a larger
> sum, and you get FAST priority service.

> Does Tom try and get people onto a regular
> supply of glasses cleaning fluid?

> Michael Ross

Update...
 

Just thought I'd give a brief update. Not that much has happened, but I did talk with Tom earlier this evening.

He does plan to do some sort of Christmas-themed window display. He likes the little tree that looks like an eye chart, which Margaret emailed to me (http://www.luckenbooth.com/images/windowtest.gif). But, it's a small GIF file, and he wants me to enlarge it -- presumably 8 1/2" x 11", but maybe bigger -- so he can just tape it to the window. I just tried resizing it in PSP6 (which I don't have much experience with), and it got all blurry 'cuz the resolution isn't fine enough. Anyone have any suggestions? Margaret?

He wasn't real thrilled with the barter idea, but I think I need time to sit and explain the possibilities to him better.

He liked the idea of the "house-call" to travelers at local hotels/motels, as long as they are pretty close. I think he is even open to making "office-calls" to busy execs, though not right away. He did make the point that he is rather limited as to what he can do, both physically and legally, away from the store.

He thought of a couple more other merchants whose lists he may be able to rent or be endorsed to. I'll try to get him to follow up on that as soon as he gets back from Ohio.

Tom actually brought up the possibility of getting a small loan (for purchase of the computer/software/printer) before I did. He had some objection to the credit line (I can't remember what), even though a local bank gives special rates to members of the Chamber of Commerce.

Regarding the publicity opportunities, I started talking about the "fashion makeover" thing on Oprah, but I think we got sidetracked. (Tom loves to talk and we get off on tangents and sometimes forget to go back to something. Know what that's like?) I did suggest that he may want to focus on an upscale, fashion-conscious, niche market. On the other end, I mentioned the "Christmas gift to the community" idea, offering products/services to the underprivileged and low-income families, etc. He has serious reservations about getting involved in welfare situations -- "it's dangerous", he said. I didn't press him, 'cuz he was late for dinner and we had more to discuss.

However, he does have a soft spot for kids, and he quoted some statistic about how many kids (65%?) in the average classroom can't see the blackboard. Because of this, he has often thought of doing some sort of program to make sure that every (local) kid got proper eyecare/wear. Sounds like a pretty big project, and I'm not sure he could finance it alone even in an average year. Hmm, maybe we could head up a special fund-drive... If we got enough donations, he might only need to donate his time. Tom & his wife already donate a lot of time/money/effort for their kids' school.

That reminds me... Tom said that it is illegal in NJ to give away a free exam. I don't remember if he specifically said "eye" exams, or if it was medical exams of any sort. Theoretically, though, it would be legal to only charge a buck, or a penny.

Oh, and I was quite mistaken about the arrangement between Tom and Ramy. Tom does indeed control the price of eye exams. (Ramy's concern, of course, was that giving a lot of discounts on exams would "cheapen" people's perception of his services.) In fact, Ramy gets paid $X/day, regardless of how much/little business comes in. Actually, if it goes over a certain volume, he gets a bit extra. But, the bottom line is that Tom controls all the pricing. On the other hand, he's gotta pay the doc, even if the doc has no opportunity to bring any money in.

That's it, for now. Thanks again, everyone.

Chris

Re: Update...
 

Hi, Chris - :-)) - well, if he's just going for a paper copy pasted on the window, then perhaps it could be redesigned using a word-processing program. I think I would take it up to A3 size or bigger, though - because it's going to loose the effect a bit. There will be a local photocopy shop which could achieve this fairly cheaply.

That would allow a bit more creativity with "parcels" round the foot of the tree and some cut'outs of specs on the floor!

The other way to do it might be to get window paints and a student (ha!) and paint the tree on the window - have to be able to do mirror imaging, tho!

Anyway, I'm quite tickled that he liked it at all!

Keep us posted, Chris!

Happy thanksgiving.

Margaret

Re: a little advice in dealing with friends
 

Chris,

You got some terrific ideas for your friend on this board. Your friend should be excited about trying many of the different ideas that were presented.

I have a friend I've known for years who is always struggling to get more local business so he doesn't have to travel so much. For a while I tried to help him with ideas to generate the business he says he wants.

After a while I noticed that none of my ideas were implemented either because he was too "busy" or he wasn't willing to change the way he was doing things. So we are still friends but I don't give any marketing ideas and he continues to travel more than he says he wants to.

I've had the same experience with family members. The ones you really want to help the most often appreciate it the least (like friends and family members)...while at the same time people who don't know you (personally) are willing to pay you thousands of dollars for these same ideas and are excitied about getting and using them.

So now I remember a saying by a guy I heard on a Jay Abraham tape (I can't think of his name).. if after presenting your marketing ideas they aren't salivating...move on to the next one (even if they are friends or family)

Ron Ruiz




"The Business Fastlane" Top Secret (and Often Unusual) Ways People Are Really Earning Money

Re: a little advice in dealing with friends
 

Good advice, Ron. Thanks.

And the guy you're thinking of is Harry Pickens, from Jay's Protege seminar(s).

Talking about the initial "interview"/consultation with a prospect, once you've given them a bunch of ideas, he says "if they're not shocked or salivating, you don't want 'em as a client." (I was just listening to those tapes again last week.) 8^]

Regards,
Chris

> Chris,

> You got some terrific ideas for your friend
> on this board. Your friend should be excited
> about trying many of the different ideas
> that were presented.

> I have a friend I've known for years who is
> always struggling to get more local business
> so he doesn't have to travel so much. For a
> while I tried to help him with ideas to
> generate the business he says he wants.

> After a while I noticed that none of my
> ideas were implemented either because he was
> too "busy" or he wasn't willing to
> change the way he was doing things. So we
> are still friends but I don't give any
> marketing ideas and he continues to travel
> more than he says he wants to.

> I've had the same experience with family
> members. The ones you really want to help
> the most often appreciate it the least (like
> friends and family members)...while at the
> same time people who don't know you
> (personally) are willing to pay you
> thousands of dollars for these same ideas
> and are excitied about getting and using
> them.

> So now I remember a saying by a guy I heard
> on a Jay Abraham tape (I can't think of his
> name).. if after presenting your marketing
> ideas they aren't salivating...move on to
> the next one (even if they are friends or
> family)

> Ron Ruiz

Re: a little advice in dealing with friends
 

That's it, Harry Pickens.

What he says is so true. I've seen
it over and over.

Those are great tapes, aren't they?

Ron

> Good advice, Ron. Thanks.

> And the guy you're thinking of is Harry
> Pickens, from Jay's Protege seminar(s).

> Talking about the initial
> "interview"/consultation with a
> prospect, once you've given them a bunch of
> ideas, he says "if they're not shocked
> or salivating, you don't want 'em as a
> client." (I was just listening to those
> tapes again last week.) 8^]

> Regards,
> Chris