Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Greetings,

In 2004 - July 24 to be exact - I wrote a piece entitled "Committing Heresy: Get Bush Out In 2004". As I was finding out some of the results of the recent election that piece flashed into my mind and I re-read it to see how close my Election Prediction was from 2 years ago. Let me reprint it here for you to judge - and comment on...

===

Committing Heresy: Get Bush Out In 2004
© 2004 by Michael Ross

I'm going to commit heresy, as far as some (many?) of my readers are concerned. Initially, you are going to think I've joined the dark side. Lost my marbles and done a Kerry flip-flop. But read me out before deciding on your final judgment.

Bold statement: George W Bush must lose the election this year for all our sake.

Okay. First the bad stuff. And number one on that list is The Patriot Act. What would have to be the worst piece of legislation to come out of any democratic government that I can remember.

With that, and the Department of Homeland Security, I am now forced to have a biometric passport (and I live in Australia!). Upon entering the U.S. I get my photo taken - and maybe even my fingerprint scanned - and pretty well treated like a felon. Nice way to treat someone coming to your country to spend money - NOT!

Granted, this might appear as the government doing its job - protecting the personal and property rights of its citizens. But that is all it is doing, only appearing to do its job, not actually doing its job. You cannot claim to be protecting someone's personal and property rights while simultaneously taking those rights away, can you?

But still. At least it is kinda in the right direction.

Dubya is for tax cuts. Good plus here. And for this reason alone he could be worthy of getting re-elected. And I'll elaborate more in a minute.

So on the one side you've got tax cuts and on the other side there is the Patriot Act.

From a financial point of view, the tax cuts are tempting. But to have all banking transactions monitored under the guise of protecting the country in case terrorists want to transfer money around, kind of defeats the point of tax cuts. It's giving me a little bit more money while monitoring my transactions and taking away my freedoms. And I'm supposed to be thankful for this?

Anyway. Some time in the next year or so, the Clinton/Greenspan Stockmarket/Real-Estate Bubble is going to finally burst for good. Stocks already tanked and now it is just a matter of time before real estate goes the same way. And judging by conditions in Australia and their mirror image in the U.S., that crash is not too far away. The only thing preventing it being Greenspan's interest rate manipulations. But they only delay it, not stop it from happening all together. So some time at the end of this year (maybe even before the election) and certainly in 2005, the real estate market will tumble and bring everything else down too.

If Bush wins in 2004, then the crash will happen on his watch. He will try to fix it. To turn the economy around. This will first be done as it is always done - by printing money. The economy will be in such a state that this will have zero effect. The ONLY thing which will help the economy will be to ABOLISH INCOME TAX and instigate a FLAT CONSUMPTION TAX. To make tax a true "user pays" system.

This will immediately put money (a lot of money) into the hands of the citizens. And this action will also turn the economy around. And could, in all reality, see a continuously booming economy.

HOWEVER, this will take time to get in. And if the economy tanks as much as I think it will, then come 2006, Bush will lose control of the senate and congress and won't be able to get his tax reforms pushed through. And he will lose control because the left will blame him for the crash - even though the events for the crash were set in motion by Clinton/Greenspan back on Clinton's watch.

So come 2008, the GOP will lose and Hillary (who will be Kerry's VP running mate in 2004), will win in a landslide. We will then be with 8 years of Hillary at the helm. And as she is a self-confessed socialist, then the economic future looks very bleak indeed.

BUT, if we let Kerry win in 2004, then the crash will happen on his watch. In 2006 he will lose control of the senate and congress. And in 2008, the GOP will get back in a landslide and can then implement the much needed income tax abolishment.

With no income taxes (private and company) individuals will be more financially able to pursue their goals. Companies will have more money to reinvest to create further values - which will mean more jobs and a flourishing economy.

Because there will be so little tax being collected, compared to today, there will be no need for the behemoth IRS. Just the savings on IRS running costs alone could run a small country.

Other government departments would also fall by the wayside as people didn't need them any more. The welfare state would diminish of its own accord with the booming economy.

The economy is at a stage now where nothing will stop the crash. Bush won't try for abolishing tax at this stage of the election campaign. In fact, not too much of anything will get done between now and election time. Which means, the crash is inevitable. It is going to happen. No-one can stop it at this point in time.

Now. If Bush wins in November, there is little hope he will be able to get tax cuts put into effect then. Just consider how much trouble he has had with the minor tax cuts he's trying to get made permanent at this point in time. When the economy dives and the GOP loses the senate and congress, Bush will be a powerless leader doomed to wait out his term and the GOP will be defeated mightily by Hillary.

===

There was some more but it had to do with Australia and our conservative govt and the election of 2007. But besides, it looks like my prediction from two years ago is coming / has come true. So WiLL we see the first lady of old become the POTUS in two year's time?

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

This election was a vote for change. A lot of Americans are not happy with many issues and it showed at the polls.

I saw Tom Delay on TV saying how things that need to get done will not get done now with Democrats controlling the house and possibly the Senate. My question is why didn't they get down when Republicans controlled the House, Sentate and Presidential office.

Will be an interesting election in 2008

Mark

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Hi Michael,

Its amazing how astute your observations were back then.

Anyways, my post is not about politics, more about privacy...


All countries check your passport for identity purposes. Now they even take your fingerprints - for identity purposes. Why is that bad?

I don't know how personal rights or privacy rights are violated by giving your fingerprints. Has anyone ever refused to show their passports to the authorities because it violates their privacy?

Sooner or later, we are going to move towards using better technology. A century back, all they had was paper - and so all they used was paper identity (passports, ration cards). But now we have better technology for identity - finger print recording, biometrics etc - and we will start using it - sooner or later.

You know what would be cool? Having no paper identity on you. No drivers licenses or passports. Just use your fingerprints instead. It is more secure, will be less costly in the long run, and we will even save a few more trees.:p

Maybe get rid of paper money and credit cards too - just use fingerprints for exchanging money... I think that'll happen someday.

And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

Ankesh,

Thanks for your thoughts.

When someone is arrested on a Criminal Charge they have their Photo taken and their Fingerprints. Upon entering the US I am subjected to the Same treatment a Criminal is, just by someone I do not call a Police Office - they are probably called Immigration Office or Insert-Name-Here Officer.

It is bad because for it to work - as you mentioned - it requires my Fingerprints to BE ON FILE. If they are on file and each Scan double checks that file, ALL my movements and the like are being recorded/tracked. I am Thus NOT FREE... and have NO PRIVACY.

Please tell me why THAT is a Good thing?

Michael Ross

Re: And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

I'm trying to understand Michael... would it be ok if they take your finger prints at the airport if everyone in the US (not just criminals) also had to submit their finger prints for records?

I don't see any difference between using finger prints or passports - for identity. Even while you show your passport, you do tell that you are entering the country. Your privacy is affected. (Can you enter any country anonymously?)

I'm not saying give permission to the authorities to check your identity anytime they want... I'm saying converting paper identities to digital identities seems like a good idea.

Anytime the authorities now ask for your paper identity, they can in the future ask for your digital identity (entering a country, driving violation, voting).

Re: And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

Ankesh,

Thanks for trying to defend your position.

By the way, nice dodge... answer what you think you can and don't answer what you cannot.


Let's change this question to something equally as valid...

"Would it be ok to shave your head at the airport if everyone in the country had to have their head shaved?"

And let's take it futher...

"Would it be ok to tattoo you with a number at the airport if everyone in the country had to have a number tattooed on them?"

It's the Same Question with different scenarios on it that all represent infringement upon my person.

The Propblem with using Fingerprints as ID is as I stated... they Must be on file and be accessible, insantly. And as such, each Check will be recorded.

So I fly in without a passport and let my fingerprint be scanned. The computer Instantly brings up my ID details so the Officer can see if it is me or not.

I want to buy something. I have my fingerprint scanned so the shop's computer can carry out the transaction by removing money from my account into theirs. This requires my print-file in the Master Computer be checked. Another check leaves a Footprint behind - where, when, what for.

I have Instantly LOST ALL PRIVACY. No longer can I buy something without the gummit knowing what it is, when it is and so on. My life is an Open Book to ANYONE who cares to take a look.


What you need to Learn about the gummit is the Creep.

Let me show you how this works with a Real Life example...

Years ago some doink down in this country went postal and killed some people with guns. Now this Event took place in a state that had the Strictest Gun Control measures of Any state in the country. The Doink was UNlicensed - and therefore going by ALL laws of the country should Not have been able to buy a gun Anywhere. One of the guns he used had been confiscated by police in another state 6 months earlier in a raid (how this guy got it was never mentioned) and his other gun was not available to the public.

So an unlicensed guy managed to have two guns no normal Australian could have while living in a state with the toughest gun laws. As a result of the killings our country decided to Disarm the population to an extent. It banned...

ALL semi-automatic rifles of Any caliber

ALL shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than two, regardless of caliber.

New laws included...

1: Must have Valid reason for owning a gun. Self defense was NOT considered a Valid reason. Only "Member of a shooting club" or "Permission to shoot, from a landowner" is considered a Valid reason - as is Profession, with Proof to back it up of course.

2: All amunition Must be kept locked away Separate from the firearm.

3: Firearm Must be stored in disabled condition - taken apart if possible, bolt separate, etc.

4: All firearms Must be locked in a safe bolted to the floor or weighing at least 150kg

5: ALL firearm owners Must do a Safety Course

6: ALL firearms owners Must Register Their Guns - so the authorities know who has the guns and Where they are.

7: If you move, you Must inform the relevant state body Where you are moving to so they can Update the gun registry database.

8: All illegal guns - just made illegal - Must be handed in by a certain date otherwise jail time for you.

What this meant was... if a police officer had to visit you they could look up your details on their car's onboard computer to see If you had any guns, what they were, and how many - and - if anyone else in the street had guns.

During the implemtation I had Two licenses for two different states. I moved three or four times and Never updated my gun database details. I also let one of my licenses laps.

The Day After one of my licenses lapsed there was a note in the letterbox from the local police. It informed me I HAD to hand in my guns IMMEDIATELY or they would come and get them from me. I had 24 hours to respond.

I called them to speak to them about it and Asked how they found me since I had Never updated my gun details. They told me How they tracked me via my driver's license.

So as I updated my driver's license from one state to the next a couple of times, Those details were stored with my gun details. So they ALWAYS knew where the guns were.

They tracked me because of Creep. Being able to track via a driver's license was NOT part of the new gun legislation. But the powers of that legislation saw Creep take ahold.

Until your gummit decides YOU are a criminal overnight and Forcible Takes your posessions away from you, you will NOT understand on an intrinsic level why I do not Like gummits or trust them, and Why I value my privacy so much as I do. You will not understand why I am so vocal when people - like you - are so willing to think giving up privacy for an APPEARANCE of convenience is a good idea.

NOTHING that infringes upon my privacy is good. And while today it's fingerprints, it's only a Short Step to needing it for fincancial transactions as you mentioned, and then saliva swabs to enter a country and DNA matching and so on. Even fingerprinting us at school and keeping those files on record In Case we think of committing a crime - we have to protect the children will be the reason - and so on.

Look at how much privacy we have lost already in the last 30 years. And no-one notices.

While *I* cannot stop it from happening, I will certainly voice my concerns when someone else is so ready to give up My Privacy for Their Conveniece.

As it stands now with the US and their fingerprinting upon entry... I will NOT visit that country for a vacation. I've been before and Loved the place. And would equally Love to go back. But not now, because the gummit's actions tell me they do not welcome law abiding honest citizens of another country and would rather subject them to the same treatment as all criminals get. It would have to be a Very Compelling Reason for me to visit the US now. But vacations are right out.

The ONLY way I would see fingerprint IDing as being OK is...

When you get your passport you submit your fingerprint via electronic scan. When you arrive in a country you Prensent your passport and have your fingerprint scanned. The scan is cross-referenced with the data on the passport's microchip and image to Verify that it is you. And all the while your fingerprint scan is NOT kept or recorded and is instantly deleted of all computer memory.

If the Country wants to Log me in as a visitor, then I am fine with that. But I am NOT fine with having my fingerprints Recorded by the gummit of another country just so I can visit for a vacation.

Michael Ross

Re: And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

Giving finger prints is not the same as cutting all your hair or getting a tattoo. Giving finger prints neither hurts you nor changes your appearance.

What I'm debating is the tools and what you're debating is what the government can do with the tools.

They tracked you even though you haven't given them any finger prints - haven't they? They can track you even now - whenever you use credit cards, through your drivers license etc.

There was this story in the news some time back - they found 7 fake passports of a well known gangster - who was in the Top 10 wanted list in India. He could travel the world as he pleased. Now if they had finger printing technology, he wouldn't be able to use 7 different passports. His traveling would have been restricted. He would probably have been caught if he tried to travel through plane. Finger printing is a more secure way of identity checking than using passports.

I'm all for "upgrading" the technology - the tools.

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Funny how Americans are expected to obey and comply with other country's laws when entering that particular country, and if we object we are deported back to the US and asked not to return, but when those not from our country come here, they want to fuss about complying with our laws.

Also funny how everyone wants to come here, get jobs and take American money and send it back to their country, because their own country's money has no sustainable value.

Even more funny, people protest how unfair America is to them for not allowing illegals to have the same rights as bona-fide US citizens are entitled to, but us Americans are not allowed to have the sames rights, special treatment or even hold a job in another country unless we bring the work with us.

Mr. Ross, I've been to many countries in my life and I can't begin to tell you the hoops I had to go through to enter a country or how I had to check in with the local law enforcement agency to inform them where I was staying, all because I was an American. It had nothing to do with security measures or terrorists, just being an American.

Your belly aching has no merit in my eyes and your argument is self serving. If you don't like our new methods, upon entering the United States, fine. Don't come here.

Matter solved. One less drain and complainer on our society.

From the Trouse
Woody Quiñones

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Well said, Woody!

Here's another side of the story about illegals and their so-called 'rights'. By coming into this country illegally they have already shown their disregard of our laws, so why should they have ANY rights other than to be deported at their expense (instead of ours)?

Tho' I feel for their predicament, to a point, because of the economic and other hardships they were trying to escape, I hold no sympathy for those who come here and break our laws without so much as a 'gee, I'm sorry...what was I thinking of?'. I'm sick of their demands. They have no right to demand anything of us.

To top it off, I'm tired of hearing about all the jobs that Americans wouldn't do and they will. Baloney! If they didn't do them we could force those who go on the dole to work, if they're able. It might also encourage even more mechanization and innovation if their 'help' wasn't so readily available.

Unfortunately, it is true that the breaking of our laws to come here illegally is not the only law of ours that they break. They're ready pickings for the exploiters and drug dealers to blackmail into being mules and runners since they're afraid of being turned in, sent back, etc.

Illegals, whatever else they are, are a real threat and drain on this country. If they're so damned ambitious, why don't they work to improve their country by following in our footsteps and doing likewise? We've never hidden our methods under a rock...they're there for anyone who wants what we have to emulate right where they are. Learn, listen, ask for help if needed, then follow through right where they are from originally. Political problems are just that: problems that can be attacked and changed from within. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Sandi Bowman

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Thanks for being so patriotic Woody.


This law of finger printing was passed when I was staying in the USA. And you know what - there were hundreds of *Americans* who didn't like the law either!

Were they a drain and a complainer to society too?

I think we should try to remain a bit more civil here.

Patriotism is good. But having an "everyone else can go to hell" attitude is not.

You didn't like how a few other countries treated you? Well - its your right to complain. But don't go: just because the other countries treated me poorly, we can treat people from other countries poorly too. Your thinking should be on a higher level than that.

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

ok ...

my two cents ...btw, it really is invigorating with yall on this site...so many 'personalities' involved , and I have each of you personified...hair color, height, etc....betcha most of you do too...

michael,
you are living in a dream world all ready ....any person with any type of credit history or any license or owning any real estate is ALL READY in the system...for 50 bux I can discover most of the details of your life...or anyone else's...from right here on the computer.

the part about the 'aliens' in the US...is a tough one for me. The legal ones should have access to all the benefits of being a citizen the same as the rest of us. The illegals...as the name implies, should be treated as the criminals they are, and exported. It feels to me the same as I felt about the abortion issue...who could possibly choose to murder a baby instead of allowing the little one to live ? very few, so what happened was the pros for abortion quit arguing that issue, and started arguing the issue of WHEN the fetus was an actual 'being"..re labeled the discussion.

on the other hand, the gubment pays extra for all those extra babies...babies who grow up in poverty and ghettos and apartment complex that would rival any jail.

same with the identity ...where are the lines ? boundaries to cross ? like your country with the guns, doesnt work does it ? Having had a couple of encouters with unsavory kids who were armed, I can tell you from first hand experience that , had I NOT be armed, I would have been beat and battered...and ,as it was, I managed to convince them that 'at least ONE of you is going to get shot....so , whoever that is, step up'.

hardly , what one envisions as a peaceful society.

kind got off subject here...but any time the govt instigates a policy such as the Patriot act, or gun control, or anti smoking...you can count on the further degradation of privacy ...it never ends until the people want it to end.

thanks
bob

Re: great job in bringing out the passion!
 

When this thread slows, lets start one about religion (J.K.)

Michael,

I would just like to ask,
Should a visitor to my country be treated like citizen of my country?

I could type for dys about my point of view but I don't have the time at the moment, so let me keep it simple by asking you this.

If your sister needed to borrow your vehile for a weeks time, would you allow it?
If so, what type of contract would be written?

Now, what if "Joe Bloke" came to you and said he needed to borrow your vehicle for a week?

Would you even borrow it to him?
If So, What Kind of documentation would you require?


If you required him to leave a fingerprint to verify his identity would he do it.

If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?



The great thing is he maintains his freedom in the fact that he doesn't have to enter the contract.




Don't get me wrong, I can debate both sides of this issue, but I simply can't understand why a person one does not know, should be treated like a person that one does know.
Jason

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Woody,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Here's the rub...

If I travel to another country I do as the laws of those countries advise. If I do not like an entry law I don't go to that country.

I Already said I would not go to the US BECAUSE of the law. I did NOT say I would go there and Then complain about it. Or I would go there and take your precious Jobs and send the money Back.

But let me go on a tanget with this...

What's the difference between tyraveling to the US to work and sending the money back - and - selling products into the US and getting the money that way?

Both see the US money leave the US and come to me... and when I sell a product into the US that's one less product made in the US so both see less work for US people. So why only biatch about one and not the other?

I don't know what illegals having rights has to do with this discussion, unless you are just venting.

And I am not Belly-aching. I am stating a Fact and My Response to that Fact... all stemming from Ankesh's mention of fingerprinting as ID. I suggest you re-read the Thread so you understand the Context of the topics mentioned.

Michael Ross

Come to Oregon
 

Put some of that "Instant Sun Tan" stuff in a tube on yer face an hands....
put an "EZ" behind yer name....and not only will you NOT git fingerprinted, they will give you an Oregon Drivers License....NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

But...regarding taking our Firearms away from us citizens...ain't gonna happen. At least the gummit socialists here have an inkling that "ONLY HONEST PEOPLE OBEY LAWS! So....they is lettin' us "Country folk" keep our weapons.

A sound that is a "Joy To My Ears"....at the stroke of midnight every New Years Eve....here in "OreGUN"....on the hills around me....is the "sound" of MANY 30.06's...12 Guages..."Smith & Wessons"....a few old Winchesters...some AK-47's and even 2 UZI'S....plus...2 guys with Civil War Cannons who "let em rip"....an what a GRANDIOSE SOUND of those 2 cannons riccochetting off the hills.....FREEDOM LIVES!

The day they TRY to take away or monitor our WEAPONS TO DEFEND OURSELVES is the day there is a March on the Staehouses....the likes of which history has never seen.

Take away our "right to defend ourselves"....even from our own GUMMIT? It will only happen AFTER....most of us "oldtimers" are gone and only those children who have been brainwashed by the freakin' LIBERALS are left to allow that to happen...."In The name of WHATEVER the LIBERAL AIRHEADS want to call it!'

As an aside...a small town near where I grew up in the suburbs of Chgo called "Morton Grove, Illinois"....a few years ago...MADE IT MANDATORY THAT EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAVE A FIREARM!

Well....this "dastardly anti-Liberal deed" caused many "Liberal" groups to attempt to stop it in court....to no avail. Thus...the "crime-wave" they were having in that suburb of Chgo (break-ins, hold-ups, rapes) went down to NIL....ALMOST ZERO Break-ins, Hold-Ups and Rapes!

WHY? Because Criminals aren't all that dumb. They knew the chances of them confronting a VICTIM who might have a firearm or have access to one...WAS GREAT!

So....the "word" got out and Morton Grove's crime rate is still the lowest in the country. Ya'd think other municipalities would pick up on dis.

Ohhhh....something that is NEVER REPORTED by our "Left-Wing Media" are the number of crimes that were DETERRED BECAUSE A VICTIM HAD A FIREARM! 1.2MILLION last year....or the REPORTED ones.

Ohhhh....you kin easily git a Drivers License here in Oregun if yer face is tan and yer last name ends in EX....BUT....if ANY Oregunian is asked fer an ID in any other State....you better be ready to have a 2nd form of ID cause the other States ain't accepting ANY Oregun Driver's Licenses as ID.

Long Live the ACLU.....HEIL HITLER!

Don Alm in Oregun
all those poor brainwashed

Re: great job in bringing out the passion!
 

Jason,

Thanks for the questions...


The answer is: Yes and No. And which one of those depends on what part of that country's laws we are talking about.

Yes, if you are refering to Property Rights. However, countries also have laws about buying Real Estate and foreigners. So Those laws must be adhered to. So in that part of the question the answer would be No.

But as far as criminal acts go - drink driving, theft, murder, rape, etc. - then all visitors should be treated as locals and subjected to the same punishments.

IF a person wishes to enter another country they must abide by the laws governing entry to those countries. If they do not like those laws then they don't go. Simple.

Such laws often include No Drug policies, as well as no Flora and Fauna policies. They MAY include certain Vaccination policies. Some require more strict Permission Slips (called a Visa) than others. Some have restrictions on how much alcohol or tobacco an Individual can bring in Without an Import Permit, and so on. Many such laws also apply to citizens. So the answer there is Yes.

On the issue of voting. As much as I think it is folly to vote, other's do not. So only those eligible to vote according to the laws of that country. That usually means Visitors are Not allowed to vote. So the answer becomes No.

But you know... even people in your own country aren't treated equally. I know in Australia for instance, it is Against the law to kill our native animals - kangaroos are an exception With a permit which allows only a certain number usually for culling purposes. But killing an Echidna, is off the list to everyone. Except, of course, the Aboriginal who killed one and then cooked it on the steps of parliament house - flaunting the laws right in the face of govt, who did nothing for fear of Abo outrage. (I am sure there are many so called minorities who seems to have Special Treatment in the US as well.)


No. I would not allow it. And it has nothing to do with whether the sister is a nice person or a family battle is raging. I do NOT lend to family.


My answer is still No. However, I can See what you are getting at. Though I am Not a Car Hire business.



Whether he would leave his fingerprint as ID is up to him. I cannot answer that for him. I am sure, if ALL such car hire places required it - and - he was sufficiently motivated to hire the car, then he would do it. Otherwise he would not and would find a car that didn't require fingerprint IDing.

As to the second part of the question, "If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?"...

If I required he leave a print and didn't I wouldn't hire it to him. Simple. My business. I run it as I see fit. This is along the same lines as, "If I required him to leave a $1,000 deposit and he didn't..." Again, my business, I set the rules, if he doesn't like it he can go elsewhere. Simple.


Exactly. He is NOT being forced into it.


No-one said an unknown person should be treated as a known person. I did say, however, that people entering the US who are not US citizens, are given the same treatment as a criminal is given.

Let me throw in another scenario...

Imagine you arrive to enter Disneyland. They might have Season Passes which allow holders of that pass to enter at will. They also have Daily Tickets which grant permission to enter for that day only. Those are the rules of Disneyland. All who enter abide by them.

Season pass holders might have Special Bonuses - better places to eat, a wider selection of beverage at those places, and so on; just like a Flight Club Member. Which is fine. I don't think anyone would object to that. Disneyland makes the rules and if you want to enter the place, you abide by them, or do not enter.

What if, suddenly, Disneyland decided All non-season holders had to provide a criminal background check before entering? Would people do it? What about passing a drug test? A blood alcohol test?

Some would still do it and some wouldn't. Of those who do, it doesn't mean they are better people and less likly to do something bad inside, does it? And that's really what the fingerprinting is about... Supposedly stopping bad guys getting in.

Now, if that is its purpose, then my print does Not need to be recorded. It only needs to be Cross Referenced with the Do Not Permit Entry list, and then deleted when no match is found, doesn't it?

Again. I am not saying to treat all strangers as people one knows. But adding that, just because someone is a stranger doesn't mean they are a bad person and should be treated like a criminal, does it?

Michael Ross

Re: Come to Oregon
 

Don,

Thanks for your freedom loving thoughts.

Of the states in the US I would choose to live if I moved there...

WA and OR on the west coast and New England states on the east coast. In fact, I have a "relative" that lives in Merlin, or it might be Riddle, in OR.

Gun stuff: I think you might enjoy Gun Watch http://gunwatch.blogspot.com and his other blogs (PC Watch, Greenie Watch, Education Watch, etc.) which can be found on the left link of Disecting Leftism http://dissectleft.blogspot.com

Spanish Stuff: The tide turns. Languages creep. I think it wise to learn Spanish - even if you are Not in the US.

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Bob,

Thanks for jumping in.


I think, so correct me if I am wrong, you are hinting that I am living in a made up fantasy world of unreality, right? And not a wonderful country people Dream about coming to. So I'll address the second part as I think you're accusing me of...


Bob, I am NOT disputing that the gummit already has many files available to it, which reveal much about me. Anything with a license/permit requirement sees my details on their system - car, boat, real estate. However, as it now stands, I can use CASH to buy whatever I want that does not require such record keeping, and NO-ONE knows I've got it.

The store might record the sale of a TV, but not to WHO. No-one knows what TV I own, or how many, nor how much *I* paid for them, nor when. No-one knows my Lifestyle Spending Habits when I buy with Cash.

In a cashless society, where transactions are carried out by fingerprint scanning, ALL my transactions are recorded and collated next to my name. Thus the Privacy I had when doing business with cash, is gone. And ALL my spending - not just stuff that involved govt licensing/permit requiremens - is available to be seen by Govt officials - and others who know how to access it. As the only way for it ALL to work across the board is for my fingerprint scan to be in a Central computer.

See he difference? Currently, what can be found out about me is limited to govt records forced upon me when buying those certain items. BUT, with fingerprint scanning, a central computer database is needed and ALL transactions are thus recorded.

Oh... by the way... stun guns and pepper spray for personal protection, is also illegal in this Country. Only the police may have such things. And carrying a knife for protection is Also illegal in his country. Of course, only law Abiding Citizens disarm themselves.

Michael Ross

Re: And what of my Freedom and Privacy???
 

Ankesh,

Thanks for adding some more.


It IS the same When taken in the Context YOU asked me the question... "if everybody had X would you do it then" type of question. And so it must be viewed in the context of my answer. Which is, "No, just because everyone in a country has X doesn't mean I will subject myself to it."

Likewise, if travelling to a Muslim country meant I had to wear Traditional clothes or my wife had to wear a Burka or Nijab or Hijab I would not go.


That's right. And like I mentioned elsewhere... IF my fingerprint was encoded into my passport and so the airport scan simply Cross-Referenced the encoded print with my scanned print, just to Verify I am who I am, and Then the scanned print is deleted off of all computer memory, I am fine with that.

I am also fine with an airport scanned print being cross referenced with existing criminal prints on file, as long as the scanned print is likewise deleted from all computer memory After the scan test is completed. But if That is the case, then such scans can be used Before a person leaves their own country, can't they? Otherwise it would require a World Wide Collaberation for ALL fingerprints of criminals to be in a central world database for it to work.

Also, you cannot discuss the tool without also discussing the Use of that tool. Fingerprint scanning and cashless transactions and IDing, can Only be used one way - with a central database and all computers linked. I WILL lose my privacy. That MUST be taken into account. And you are Ignoring that inconveient fact.

Look. I have No Problem if YOU want to live that way. My problem is that YOU - and all the other people who think the same - see your way FORCED onto me.

As it is, there are people who use their Credit Card for everything and then pay it off each month. Thus, ALL their spending is available to be seen. But that is their CHOICE. What you advocate takes that CHOICE away. And I am asking, but waiting for an answer, to why losing my privacy like this is a good thing?

Think of it like this... if what you sped you money on is Not the business of your nextdoor neighbor, why is it someone else's business who calls themselves a govt?

As much as you might like to think Creep doesn't happen, it ALWAYS does. The Unitended Consequences ALWAYS results. Which makes you question whether they were unintended in the first place.

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Nope. They are exercising their rights under our constitution AS US citizens.


You ain't seen me bein uncivil yet. It's the perfect attitude. It's our fought for and died for right to stand up and tell anyone if you don't like our nation, then we have every right to tell you to get out and don't come back.

If that's to harsh for you, to bad! I've been a soldier, I've defended my country. You speak ill of my blessed country, because your inconvienenced, then you just opened up a can of whipass.

No country has ever treated me badly. They all have their protocols. Before I go to any country I contact their embassy and find out all I need to know. The good and bad. When I land in a country, I know what I'm walking into.

My comment was to point out that their are many countries out there, where entering is a great deal harder to get into then the minor inconveinence one experiences coming into the United States.

From the Trouse
Woody Quiñones

Don, You May be Confused
 

As an aside...a small town near where I grew up in the suburbs of Chgo called "Morton Grove, Illinois"....a few years ago...MADE IT MANDATORY THAT EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAVE A FIREARM! Well....this "dastardly anti-Liberal deed" caused many "Liberal" groups to attempt to stop it in court....to no avail. Thus...the "crime-wave" they were having in that suburb of Chgo (break-ins, hold-ups, rapes) went down to NIL....ALMOST ZERO Break-ins, Hold-Ups and Rapes!"


Don I live near Morton Grove, IL...you've actually got it backwards. Morton Grove passed a law in 1981 BANNING the right to have firearms in the home.
Crime rates in the next 2 decades barely changed in Morton Grove.

However at the same time, Kennesaw Georgia, passed an ordinance mandating a firearm and ammunition must be kept in the home. In Kennesaw over the next 2 decades crime rates PLUMMETED... perhaps thats the town you were thinking of?

Maybe it was "Downers Grove"
 

Whatever....there IS a Western Suburb of Chgo that made the ordinance that every home MUST have a firearm.

DA

Re: Come to Oregon
 

And how was this MADATORY law enforced and what was the penalty if a household did NOT have firearms?


As an aside...a small town near where I grew up in the suburbs of Chgo called "Morton Grove, Illinois"....a few years ago...MADE IT MANDATORY THAT EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAVE A FIREARM!

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

thanks michael..

yep ..I do see the difference ....only point I waas trying to make...not ACCUSE you ...was that the gummit will just ake any additional step it needs to take to be able to follow YOUR money ...

changing the currency design....forcing retailers to record sales of items over 100 bux...eliminating larger denominations of currency ...all steps to follow you ..and me...

know this is NOT happending at the moment but just wait and see ...

the CASH underground economy is a definite target of the govt.

thanks again ...
bob

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Bob,

Thanks for adding some more.


Our govt created a Goods and Services Tax (GST) of 10%. So an item that Used to sell for $100 would now sell for $110. And to figure out how much GST is on any item you buy, divide the sale price by 11.

Anyway. This GST ALSO applied to Services - lawn guys, plumbers, electricians, etc. So a $400 job would now be a $440 job.

Well, instead of Capturing More Tax from service people, it drove them underground more. So now they are More Willing to do a deal - as long as you do Not require paperwork.

That $400 plumbing job is now $380 without a receipt of work done. And so on. The gummit created this "Black Economy". And they are also the ones to Name it as if it is something Bad. Interesting.

Michael Ross

Re: Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True
 

Hmm... actually - as far as I know - you can't kick anyone out of USA just for holding an opinion.

Oh sure - you have the right to tell people to get out. But they don't actually have to listen to you. Even if you've served as a soldier.

That might sound unfair to you. But there is a very good reason behind it. Woody - as you've owned so many different businesses, you might be able to recognize the reason. Its quite simple: one can't improve if one shuts their ears to any criticism.

(I'm sure you don't throw your customers out when they complain - do you?)

The perfect attitude would be: "How can I make America best." Not "Oh they don't think America is best? They can go to hell."

--

Btw, just to set records straight - I do love America. I've lived there myself and loved living there. Its a great country with some great people.

It's strange...
 

A while back I posted something like the following:

"Both Conservatives and Liberals are pretty much alike. They both see with one eye and only think with half a brain. Left and right respectively."

The thing is, it was quickly removed and I got repremanded for posting political views.

But now we've got this complete thead full of mostly Conservative ideas and rants about Liberals and it stays. Hummmm, I guess the determining factor is whether your post conforms to the belief system of the monitors of this site.

Re: It's strange...
 

Hi Shane,

I don't remember your post, so it's possible it wasn't me who removed it (as I'm not the only moderator)...

However, it sounds like your post may have been part of a political discussion, where the whole discussion was removed. If that was the case, then it wasn't just your post but the whole thread which may have been the issue.

In any case, nobody should take any removal of their posts (in the course of moderating) personally!

For the record, I leave up a lot of posts regarding political views I may not agree with. (I don't see how anyone could agree with all the views posted in this thread, for example!) As the saying goes... "Opinions are like a**holes - everyone's got one, but nobody wants to look at the other guy's."

Having said that, people should remember this is not primarily a political board... (I personally get my own occasional dose of politics from http://www.strategytalk.org .)

- Dien