What's your take on this re privacy issues?
 

Hi all

We run www.energyreview.net, a news service for the energy industry.

People find us by various means and the usual way into a subscription is to take a 1 month free trial of the service. At the end of the trial period, if there's a phone number to call, we call them, otherwise it's an email conversation.

Now, we try to capture as much information as we can about someone who signs up for a trial. If they come from Google, say, then we are able to capture precisely what it was they were looking for when they found us. Seems to me to be highly valuable information.

Here's the thing - we're then able to contact someone and say "we know that you found us by looking for blah blah blah on Google. Let us help you find more on that topic in our archives". It's just responding to a precise need - the essence of selling.

Now one of a number of things can happen here, but here's two of them:

They can say "hey great, thanks for the help", and may or may not sigh up for the service.

or

Some may say "how dare you record this information". Now I happen to think that there are quite a few privacy-issue complainers out there who need to get a life, but it is BOUND to upset some!

So what to do - use it or not?

Looking forward to any responses.

Thanks

Philip


EnergyReview.net

Re: complainers
 

> Here's the thing - we're then able to
> contact someone and say "we know that
> you found us by looking for blah blah blah
> on Google. Let us help you find more on that
> topic in our archives".

Philip,

Why do you need to tell them how you learned what they're interested in? I know I would be totally freaked out if someone came up to me in the supermarket and said, "We know you went straight for the pasta shelves when you walked in today. Would you be interested in a book of Italian cooking recipes or a new sauce we have?"

You could simply give them a special offer tied to their apparent interest.

Marcia Yudkin


Customized month-by-month marketing plan tells you how to grow your business

Invasion!
 

Hi:

Tracking a referrer page is one thing...capturing the actual search string is quite another.

I would consider it an invasion, and in the back of my mind would wonder what other information you covertly gleaned from my computer...it would be enough for me to not have any further dealings with your business or site.

This is a great example of the types of info a computer gives up from trusting and unsuspecting surfers...this should be a wakeup call to members to take security steps necessary to protect themselves.

Cornell

Here's a real quick security test you can use
 

A few years back I placed this online so people could test their browser security.

Seeing Cornell's message prompted me to put it back online. It's a little dated but you may still find it useful.

Click the link below to test your browser's security.


Browser security test

Re: complainers
 

Hi Marcia

What I was saying was very much a "for instance". We're in the business of providing news and information. We know from our subscribers that they like to be led to information they are interested in, and we show them how to find it in the archives. Now If I know that a person looks on Google for a company - say "Hardman Resources", then I KNOW they are likely to want to take a look in our archives for all of the articles on that company. And most of them would be grateful that I HAD pointed them towards that information - that's the irony!

All I'm trying to do is explore ways to use that information to point that prospective person towards more of what they're looking for and hence hopefully generate some business out of that relationship.

Life's never easy is it? :-) I think if the roles were reversed and I were looking for information, I'd be happy if someone said - hey over here there's more of what it appears you want. Save me a whole pile of time! But on the whole I'm a lot more laid back than many. I couldn't give a toot if someone knows I'm looking for a press release about some oil deal or another:-)

Best

Philip

> Philip,

> Why do you need to tell them how you learned
> what they're interested in? I know I would
> be totally freaked out if someone came up to
> me in the supermarket and said, "We
> know you went straight for the pasta shelves
> when you walked in today. Would you be
> interested in a book of Italian cooking
> recipes or a new sauce we have?"

> You could simply give them a special offer
> tied to their apparent interest.

> Marcia Yudkin

Re: Invasion!
 

Hi

Thanks for your thoughts.

Isn't it a shame in this jolly old world of ours that the same information is used for good and bad?

Yes we check what sort of browser people are using, so that we can make sure our site is visible and valuable to the most people.

Yes we like to know what they are looking for so that we can give them more of what they want.

Yes we want to track the way they navigate through our site, so that we can make sure they aren't getting lost.

All positives, yes? Isn't that the essence of selling and customer relations - making their experience with us better and more valuable for THEM?

As I said, it's a shame that we're fighting the do-badders in this whole thing, and the end result is that in our (reasonable) attempts to protect our privacy, we're necessarily missing out on so much. We end up insulating ourselves from both the bad AND the good. Don't know the solution.

Oh well, all food for thought:-)

Best

Philip

> Hi:

> Tracking a referrer page is one
> thing...capturing the actual search string
> is quite another.

> I would consider it an invasion, and in the
> back of my mind would wonder what other
> information you covertly gleaned from my
> computer...it would be enough for me to not
> have any further dealings with your business
> or site.

> This is a great example of the types of info
> a computer gives up from trusting and
> unsuspecting surfers...this should be a
> wakeup call to members to take security
> steps necessary to protect themselves.

> Cornell

Never use yourself as a gauge!
 

Philip,

It's really dangerous in business to use your own personal reactions to something as a guideline to how other people think.

I think you were on the right track to ask for others' opinions. It's a little hard sometimes to accept the validity of someone else's reaction, but this is an important part of pleasing many types of customers and not alienating them needlessly.

Best wishes,
Marcia Yudkin


Here's how to get an objective opinion on your site.. if you're open to it

IT's called priciple and you are missing it -->
 

> Isn't it a shame in this jolly old world of
> ours that the same information is used for
> good and bad?

NO - it boils down to how you obtain the information....up front by asking the person, or covertly without them knowing.

Spying and secretly recording a persons moves and then saying it is in their best interest is akin to the Big Brother scenario of chipping everybody so the government knows your every move.

Hmmmm...let's take a similar scenario...away from computers, but that could happen from covert info gathering....

In your sexual activity you use a certain brand of prophylactics. One day you open your mail and see a fantastic special sale on just your brand. Great news....you're happy and order. But how did they know what you preferred...would you be happy to know that they had invaded your home, your privacy, with technology to explore and perhaps even watch your sexual habits to get the information?

I don't think you or any one else would be too pleased about it.

Nothing wrong with giving your customers what they want, but it is the principle of how you go about it.

Use the appropriate software to let your viewers personalize your site to their needs...let them tell you what they want and then provide it.

I would hazzard a guess that if I marketed a similar site to your user list and quoted to them the methods you use, by your own admission here, that your user list would shrink by at least 90%.

> Yes we check what sort of browser people are
> using, so that we can make sure our site is
> visible and valuable to the most people.

No justificsation for this...This isn't really necessary info....if your designer is doing his/her job properly he/she would check the pages in all the browsers, on all the platforms, to make sure it was displaying properly.

> Yes we like to know what they are looking
> for so that we can give them more of what
> they want.

Then do it properly...ask them...don't invade their privacy by spying on them.

> Yes we want to track the way they navigate
> through our site, so that we can make sure
> they aren't getting lost.

Nothing wrong with that...this is expected.

> As I said, it's a shame that we're fighting
> the do-badders in this whole thing,

Unless I am mistaken, you have just admitted that YOU are one of the do-badders that we have to protect ourselves from.

> Don't know the solution.

Sure you do...give your viewers what they want but go about it in the proper way - with ethics.

Cornell

Re: IT's called priciple and you are missing it -->
 

After reading this thread, I am not sure everyone is speaking the same language here. Seems that Philip is drilling down into the log files that most any web site keeps. Is that a problem? The logs are freely acknowledged. All the data is there about you. Conversely, is it possible to track my cereal preference and customise an offer for me? Probably. Just compare the supermarket register file with my debit card.
All that is being mentioned is a way to more closely target specific niches. If you know (from your log file) a few people type a very specific search term related to a product you sell, then you would probably build one or more pages related to that search term.
In fact I would only semi customise the information I used to target the customer. I would prepare some faq files, 3 or 4 versions, that cover the most requested areas. I'd decide which one to send people based on the information I knew about them.

Re: Never use yourself as a gauge!
 

Yep, that's exactly swhat I WAS doing - asking for some feedback in case I DID do something wrong.

Shame some people have to be so damned rude and accusatory (not you!) when they don't even know me!

Cheers

Philip

> Philip,

> It's really dangerous in business to use
> your own personal reactions to something as
> a guideline to how other people think.

> I think you were on the right track to ask
> for others' opinions. It's a little hard
> sometimes to accept the validity of someone
> else's reaction, but this is an important
> part of pleasing many types of customers and
> not alienating them needlessly.

> Best wishes,
> Marcia Yudkin

Re: IT's called priciple and you are missing it -->
 

Cornell

You know nothing about me and even less about my principles. You have made asumptions about what we use or do not use this information for, with absolutely zero knowledge of the facts.

I asked a simple question to get some feedback, not open myself up to an offensive response.

To compare the condom scenario (a highly personal one) with someone seeking current information about an item already in the news is fatuous. You can talk all you like about "it's the principle" (with which I tend to agree, but not to an extreme extent) but this comparison is invalid.

I stopped accusing people of what I THINK they believe or are doing ages ago. You might try the same.

Garry Boyd sums it up where I'm coming from quite well in his post.

Thanks anyway for the feedback, Cornell - it's ALL interesting!

Philip

boils down to how you obtain the
> information....up front by asking the
> person, or covertly without them knowing.

> Spying and secretly recording a persons
> moves and then saying it is in their best
> interest is akin to the Big Brother scenario
> of chipping everybody so the government
> knows your every move.

> Hmmmm...let's take a similar scenario...away
> from computers, but that could happen from
> covert info gathering....

> In your sexual activity you use a certain
> brand of prophylactics. One day you open
> your mail and see a fantastic special sale
> on just your brand. Great news....you're
> happy and order. But how did they know what
> you preferred...would you be happy to know
> that they had invaded your home, your
> privacy, with technology to explore and
> perhaps even watch your sexual habits to get
> the information?

> I don't think you or any one else would be
> too pleased about it.

> Nothing wrong with giving your customers
> what they want, but it is the principle of
> how you go about it.

> Use the appropriate software to let your
> viewers personalize your site to their
> needs...let them tell you what they want and
> then provide it.

> I would hazzard a guess that if I marketed a
> similar site to your user list and quoted to
> them the methods you use, by your own
> admission here, that your user list would
> shrink by at least 90%.

> No justificsation for this...This isn't
> really necessary info....if your designer is
> doing his/her job properly he/she would
> check the pages in all the browsers, on all
> the platforms, to make sure it was
> displaying properly.

> Then do it properly...ask them...don't
> invade their privacy by spying on them.

> Nothing wrong with that...this is expected.

> Unless I am mistaken, you have just admitted
> that YOU are one of the do-badders that we
> have to protect ourselves from.

> Sure you do...give your viewers what they
> want but go about it in the proper way -
> with ethics.

> Cornell

Thanks Garry
 

At least YOU are getting it:-)

I'd love to be able to customise our site in response to a broswer's needs, just like Amazon does, but it just isn't possible. I'll give you an example.

A while ago, someone did a search on Google for "Iran+Pars+oilfield+Korean", found one of our articles and signed up for a trial (which he had to do to be able to read the whole article). He was looking for information about a recent contract for a large Korean concern to do some work in the Pars oilfield in Iran. Try categorising that effectively! The essence of Google - free-form text searches - makes the Amazon style customisation all but impossible.

Now, you'd have to agree, this guy is NOT a casual browser. He's looking for very specific information and, buried in our thousands of stories, we may well have more information which he wants. The trick is guiding him with enough precision to be useful without upsetting his privacy sensibilities! Sorry, but I do believe that there's sometimes a danger of common sense being submerged beneath an ocean of principle!

Having said that, there are two scenarios here. First of all, someone has carried out that search, found the article and freely asked for permission to read the article by specifically requesting access. Alternatively, someone carrying out that same search has arrived at our site and has NOT requested access, for whatever reason. However, we still know what he's looking for and can still help him.

In the first scenario, do I NOW have the right to say - "you are looking for info on blah blah, because that's the topic of the article you have specificaly requested permission to read. We have more info over here." (That's the sentiment, not necessarily the words) Or am I still going to upset people!?

Cheers and thanks for your comments

Philip

> After reading this thread, I am not sure
> everyone is speaking the same language here.
> Seems that Philip is drilling down into the
> log files that most any web site keeps. Is
> that a problem? The logs are freely
> acknowledged. All the data is there about
> you. Conversely, is it possible to track my
> cereal preference and customise an offer for
> me? Probably. Just compare the supermarket
> register file with my debit card.
> All that is being mentioned is a way to more
> closely target specific niches. If you know
> (from your log file) a few people type a
> very specific search term related to a
> product you sell, then you would probably
> build one or more pages related to that
> search term.
> In fact I would only semi customise the
> information I used to target the customer. I
> would prepare some faq files, 3 or 4
> versions, that cover the most requested
> areas. I'd decide which one to send people
> based on the information I knew about them.

Re: IT's called priciple and you are missing it -->
 

> I don't think you or any one else would be
> too pleased about it.

I think your taking an unfairly sensitive subject to illustrate your point. Nobody can refute that they don't want their sexual habits to be public. Generally people don't want to get into that sort thing. (of course ther are always exceptions, but I digress...)

> Hmmmm...let's take a similar scenario...away
> from computers, but that could happen from
> covert info gathering....

> In your sexual activity you use a certain
> brand of prophylactics. One day you open
> your mail and see a fantastic special sale
> on just your brand. Great news....you're
> happy and order. But how did they know what
> you preferred...would you be happy to know
> that they had invaded your home, your
> privacy, with technology to explore and
> perhaps even watch your sexual habits to get
> the information?

The other mistake you make is that here, you say that there is an intrusion. I don't believe that Philip's site makes any sort of intrusion into your computer, rather your computer, and also the server that your doing your searches on is freely giving this information to Philip. I think you'll find that pretty much every site you go to takes into account what browser you have, and keeps a log of it.. quite a few sites check where you came from either as a security measure, or perhaps as a partnership or linking deal.

Let us take another example of how Philip is gathering his information.

You goto a video store. You spend some time searchign through the videos. To take the videos out, you need to get a membership (giving up some personal details - ie how to contact you). Lets say you take out a very defined selection of B-Grade Horror or some other cult niche. The video store remembers that, and either uses that information to send you notification when they get in other videos you might like, or they look at all peoples choices and get in more of the types of videos that people most take out.

I believe the process at energyreview.net is pretty much exactly the same as the example above. You do a search, you find an article. To read the article, you need to sign up, and give them your contact details. What kind of idiot doesn't listen to what their customers want? Just because they don't write mail to you saying "hey i want more blahblah" doesn't mean they don't want you to get more blahblah.

> Nothing wrong with giving your customers
> what they want, but it is the principle of
> how you go about it.

Should we make a law to make all people behind counters wear blindfolds?

> I would hazzard a guess that if I marketed a
> similar site to your user list and quoted to
> them the methods you use, by your own
> admission here, that your user list would
> shrink by at least 90%.

You probably could. It would probably be the same sort of techniques they use to start mob riots. You can get people all worked up over anything if you tell them the right things. (And exclude others!!)

> No justificsation for this...This isn't
> really necessary info....if your designer is
> doing his/her job properly he/she would
> check the pages in all the browsers, on all
> the platforms, to make sure it was
> displaying properly.

I think it is. If 100% people that goto your site use "Bonza Bob's Browser"(TM) that uses "Super Nifty Technology"(TM) or even that you find that people don't use "Browser X" that doesn't support any of the usual browser standards. It means you don't have to lower what you can do with your presentation to suit all the different types of browsers.

> Then do it properly...ask them...don't
> invade their privacy by spying on them.

Perhaps Philip can have a note below his trial signup saying that "Warning: we might capture some information from your browser when you hit submit"

I think i've illustrated my point.

If you find logic against what I've said. Please post it for the sake of clearing this sort of thing up.

Regards,
Z.

Gary you are right, and I owe Philip an apology....
 

Hi Gary:

> After reading this thread, I am not sure
> everyone is speaking the same language here.
> Seems that Philip is drilling down into the
> log files that most any web site keeps.

After reading both your posting and Philip's last one, and before responding to this I asked a few other people about the wording in the initial posting and what conotation they drew from it.

I wasn't alone in the way I took it, and alas the problem with the printed word.

Philip used the word "capture" and that immediately triggered the word cookie in thought which was what I based my response on. Had Philip mentioned he was using logs to garner his info then the response would not have been made at all....again the problem of the printed word and how it is perceived by different readers and how it can get us in trouble - including me here.

Thank you for posting your reply...it cleared the way to see my misunderstanding.

Cornell

Philip an apology.....
 

Philip:

I owe you an apology...I explained somewhat in the response to Gary above...what it boiled down to was how I perceived your wording that triggered my reply...my misunderstanding, and I apologize for it. I took your wording with the conotation the you were 'capturing' the info using a cookie (invasive) rather than from your log files.

Having said this, perhaps if you look at the way I took it as invasive, then you will understand why I used a comparison to a sexual nature as that too would be about as invasive as one could get.

Again my apologies.

Cornell

Matching search terms used to find a site to email addresses....
 

Hi Philip and everyone,

I think that the problem here perhaps is that some may not realize that this kind of information is essentially available in all web logs....

When you go from one site to another, usually the "referral" link is known to the web site you visit. This isn't due to the web site - sharing this info is built in to your web browser (it's there thanks to Microsoft and AOL/Netscape)....

That is, the referral information is information which is readily provided to the web site by your browser software. This info is also automatically "logged" by most web site logging software. From the web site owner's point of view, it helps them to know exactly where there visitors are coming from.

How can they know which search terms you used to find a site, then? Let's say you go to "Google" and type in the phrase "small business" (without the quotes). If you look at the address of the web page giving you the search results, you'll see it's something like

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=small+business

Now, let's say you click through to the first link of the search results (which is www.sba.gov ).... This site can then see your "referral" info - that is, they know you came to their site from the above Google web page. The Google web page above tells exactly what search term you were using - you used the words "small business".

This is all public information.... Nobody had to do any "digging" - it's presented to you on a plate. If there's someone to blame for this, the people to blame are the creators of your web browsing software (Microsoft, AOL/Netscape, etc.), and the search engine sites (Google, Altavista, etc.) since they present the search term info right in the URL of the web page.

I'm not exactly sure how Philip is tracking this data for *specific* users - that's a little more difficult, but not that difficult. I think you could either do it by sorting through and matching IP addresses (again, which is just using info which is given to you in your log file), or by using cookies or something like that, to match email addresses to the search term info....

Here's where it may start getting into the "personal" type of issues, at least if you use the "cookie" method. If you use the "IP address method" - while it would be more difficult, again you are simply using info that is presented freely to your site thanks to Microsoft or AOL/Netscape browsers, combined with Google, Altavista, etc. search engines.

Anyhow, I think the main point here, though, is that some people are clearly uncomfortable with this, and it's good to take that into account in your actions and communications....

- Dien Rice

Re: Philip an apology.....
 

Absolutely no problem at all - you're welcome

Words, words words - who'd use em eh? :-)

Philip

> Philip:

> I owe you an apology...I explained somewhat
> in the response to Gary above...what it
> boiled down to was how I perceived your
> wording that triggered my reply...my
> misunderstanding, and I apologize for it. I
> took your wording with the conotation the
> you were 'capturing' the info using a cookie
> (invasive) rather than from your log files.

> Having said this, perhaps if you look at the
> way I took it as invasive, then you will
> understand why I used a comparison to a
> sexual nature as that too would be about as
> invasive as one could get.

> Again my apologies.

> Cornell

Going deeper
 

I do not really think there are "privacy issues" regardless of the way users are tracked. Until you become a customer, by signing up for a trial, there is no way for them to contact you.

However, I do wonder if you are asking the right question. Your perception is that your audience is not finding the full depth of coverage you have, without assistance. Assuming that the search string used to find you is exactly relevant to what articles they may want could lead you up the garden path. You need to deliver a picture of the depth you have directly to the browser. Actually doing this gets into some fairly heavy search theory, but there are some simple things you could do.