TW (and others) Very good discussin. IMHO
 

TW, if memory serves me, you do do a lot with local businesses.
That's where I'm focussed, too.
I'm a great fan of Clayton Makepeace. But, even though he really overdelivers, he is doing stuff for the big mailers.
That's not what I do (or maybe even want to do).
But his recent (free) newsletter talked about repositioning from a copywriter to "partnering" with your clients and not freelancing.
He talks about the coming recession or downturn and how this will help you survive and prosper.

This article started a real barn burner discussion that is chock full of ideas.
Many of these are applicable to those of us who are in the "small business" niche.

TW, you may enjoy this.
I have taken a lot away from this.

I was getting ready to do a mailing to a cold list of members of a local Chamber of Commerce.

This topic totally changed my hook and focus.
It's now "Will your business thrive, survive or die in the coming recession."

Obviously, I'm the solution.

Here's the link.
Clayton's Recession Positioning Ideas.

Hope this was helpful.

Larry Foster

Yes, it is a good discussion, and if you have the skills and
 

Yes Larry you are the SOLUTION. But then, you always have been. I love Clayton...not so sure about AWAI since I visited them last year...but, Clayton is spot on. HOWEVER,

even though I currently have those kind of relationships with marketing companies that Clayton talks about...and what he says is great stuff...

And HE and about a dozen others selling "copywriting" courses or how to build a copywriting business all have ONE thing in common...and he talks about this in the post you linked to...

The continous EFFORT of finding new customers...and doing MORE WORK for those people you have. This is great advice.

And I'd be following this great advice but for two reasons:

ONE, I'm too old and tired to be working that hard (and I'd like to eliminate ALL my clients ASAP)

TWO, the TOLL POSITION as Harvey Brody teaches it (the "set it and forget it" model)...

has me working about 80% of my time on setting up those kinds of LONG term, continuous, ownership and use and control, type deals that eliminate the need to find new customers or to satisfy and do more for the customers you have. It is IN MY OPINION, a much better model, especially for us older types...

than to get into "relationships" and become a "partner" as opposed to a FREELANCER...

I 110% agree with Clayton that the "partnership" is better than FREELANCING, and my current deals are along those lines...with a % of profits that I help generate...GOOD STUFF.

But in my eyes, a Harvey Brody TOLL POSITION that pays for years, or decades perhaps, as many of his have done...with the ability to cash out instantly (by flipping for a profit) or holding on to build up equity...as Clayton is doing with his ad agency (using it as his big money cash out for retirement)...and/or passing it on to your heirs or estate...

is a model that has greater appeal to me.

Thanks for pointing us all to that excellent discussion at Clayton's place.

Gordon Jay Alexander

PS. OH, his model does require you to have SKILLS, as in copywriting and marketing and negotiating...in Harvey Brody's model, it is possible for a complete neophyte to hit a home run with some continuous effort...learning as he goes by DOING the step by step process.

PPS. HERE IS a bit of GOLD from Clayton...hope he doesn't mind:
***********Quoted from Clayton Makepeace****************
Here in the States, there are twenty million businesses with 500 or fewer employees. I’m sure there are millions in Australia as well.

Many of these businesses are NOT your best prospects. Many are too small, too ignorant, too poor. Others (among the larger ones) are too arrogant (read: ignorant) or already have the marketing thing covered well.

That still leaves millions of businesses that would be dream partners for all of us!

They have products that bring tremendous value to customers’ lives.

Their owners are highly motivated to grow (or in this recession, to survive).
****************End of quote****************8

And this answers the question (I've gotten in PM and email) about WHO is going to really pay for a $100,000.00 a seat seminar? "Come ON Gordon, you're NUTS!"

FACT is, as Clayton points out...there are thousands of small biz owners, doing 10 to 50 million a year that would love to add a huge % of new business to their bottom lines. We know who they are. We have the goods they need...and it isn't about the number...it is, as I seem to be saying more and more every day...all about your TARGETS...

IT IS ABOUT YOUR CUSTOMERS...OR WOULD BE CUSTOMERS.

Do you know how many owners/CEO's would not want to increase their million dollar businesses a few more million...there may be a few...but they aren't on our lists.

gjabiz

Wow! Yes Larry -- that link has great info -- THANKS! (dno)
 

-- TW

Re: TW (and others) Very good discussin. IMHO
 

Gordon...

This may be a dumb question: When you say toll position, do you mean a 'freestanding' or 'floating' toll position --- or --- do you mean signing up biz's to particular ("custom made") toll arrangements (a la J Abraham)?

If it's the latter, I heard (+ I'm no expert) that companies are really reluctant to sign up for arrangements like that -- even though it's "if I bring in a dollar's worth of biz, will you give me 15 cents?" They won't take that deal because it also comes attached with the word -- 'forever.'

In other words, it's like the old "it only costs 10 dollars to get someone to hit a machine with a wrench to get it going -- but it takes $1,000 to find the guy who knows EXACTLY WHERE to hit the machine with the wrench."

THAT makes sense to a biz -- and they'd be willing to pay the $1,000. Where it gets dicey (I've heard) is when you want them to hit the machine (*ONCE*) to get it going, then you tell them you want $1,000 ------
***A MONTH***, from now on.

How does all of the above fit in with the kind of toll arrangement(s) you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

Gordon -- that is profound...
 

That quote...

Here in the States, there are twenty million businesses with 500 or fewer employees. I’m sure there are millions in Australia as well.

Many of these businesses are NOT your best prospects. Many are too small, too ignorant, too poor. Others (among the larger ones) are too arrogant (read: ignorant) or already have the marketing thing covered well.

That still leaves millions of businesses that would be dream partners for all of us!

They have products that bring tremendous value to customers’ lives.

Their owners are highly motivated to grow (or in this recession, to survive).

__________________________________

That's what I mean when I say I'm reluctant to approach biz's about ideas... There's a certain kind of open-minded WISDOM that the real leaders have, that the underlings DO NOT.

Some people + companies have this as their main mission: NEVER BE WRONG! In their minds, it's way more important to *never be wrong* than it is to be right. Which is why their frist instinct, upon hearing a new idea, is to SHOOT IT DOWN. The risk (to them) of being WRONG, far outweighs the POSSIBLE benefit of being right (choosing a new idea) -- so it's just EASIER + LESS RISKY to merely close off all incoming ideas.

REAL leaders + companies are ALWAYS on the lookout for ways to improve -- open to ALL new ideas. Even WELCOMING them! That is the kind of "WISDOM"-based companies and exec's I'm looking for -- and afraid I WON'T find (or be able to get to). THOSE are the exec's at the TOP, not the middle!!

That is what that Makepeace quote was about!

Your thoughts?

-- TW

Re: Gordon -- that is profound...
 

Gordon, excellent point on Toll Positioning.
Since I'm a little slow, I'm still trying to get my head around it.
I understand what a toll position is (I think) but how to find and set one up eludes me right now.
As far as what I'm doing, my mailer is a pre-qualifier and I will offer a free 15 minute telephone consultation which should further qualify anyone who takes the initiative to call.
Looking for upfront and (if web work) setting it up so that I have ongoing income and work.
TW, glad you enjoyed it.
Larry

I would need to know what a "free standing" toll position is...
 

All of the above...does NOT fit in at all with the Toll Positions strategies that Harvey Brody talked about in his document.

As far as "free standing" and "floating" I'm clueless as to what you are talking about. And in fact...in FACT...
there are companies willing and DO give a continuous royalty to people who bring them new ideas and new products.

As for what Jay Abraham teaches...I don't really know...but I don't think it is the same thing...from my limited understanding, it appears he teaches more about exploiting hidden assets...but again, I don't have first hand knowledge of what he does teach...

I did TODAY, receive an email from one of his students who has made a connection with an inventor. This inventor wants to just keep inventing...while others bring the product to market.

This presents a REAL on-going, "set it and forget it" type of TOLL POSITION that I refer to. It isn't about approaching a business at all. Has nothing to do with adding more business for a % (although it can be argued in the larger sense it does, as when LOWE'S or HOME DEPOT add q product to their shelves)...

I think Jay and Dan and Clayton and Harlan and Marlon et al...have wonderful information...but NONE of them do a Classic Take Off as Harvey Brody detailed in his course 25 years ago. NONE OF THEM.

I currently have 4 (FOUR) "students" for lack of a better term. A couple are real students of Jay and a couple of others and they all have belonged to innercircles and have purchased information products. NONE of them have given me a dime...and I wouldn't take it if offered.

I'm not selling what I know (yet). These 4 came to me. These 4 took action on Harvey's document. They came asking, "Do you think is the type of project Harvey Brody would do?"

And I gave them my answer. From that, I've been on the phone with all 4. They all seem sincere and are DOING, they now have a better understanding of what is out there. I think all 4 'GET IT' about the opportunity that exists about finding stored value and how many products, inventions and IP is available to exploit.

They ALL are nervous about screwing things up. I've reassured ALL of them, it is OK to do that, as long as you learn from it. Go ahead and SCREW up 10 potential deals...and you'll make big BANK on the 11th, as long as you don't repeat your screw ups. We teach a learn by doing process.

I could be wrong, but I think Jay Abraham spends a certain amout of time helping people get their "thinking" caps screwed on. I could be wrong about this.

But in 5 months of study, IF a person were to have contacted 10 potential TOLL POSITIONS, and learned from each one...there would be no reason to doubt that by month 6 there would be a deal in place...and it only takes one to get the ball rolling.

Today I have 4 "students". In 6 months, maybe 40. In 2 years 400. 400 people or more scouring the globe for TOLL POSITIONS, and we would not have even scratched the service of the ideas and products available.

I have an inkling of what everyone else does teach...I do KNOW for a fact, there is NO ONE else teaching what Harvey Brody has to offer. Who else has the 54 years of continuous success DOING IT? None of those guys people are PAYING (often hundreds and thousands of dollars to) to learn from even has a clue as to how to get a real "set it and forget it" TOLL POSITION. IF they did, they wouldn't be selling you their TIME, would they?

Gordon Jay Alexander

Free standing...
 

What JA teaches (as I understand it) is about finding untapped resources, etc. -- but then setting up (what I would call) toll postitions -- I stand between you and getting higher profits, and collect a toll for every dollar that goes ("flows") through what (the better-ROI systems) I have set up. I am the choke point through which the higher profits must flow. That can be set-it-and-forget-it systems.

What I meant by free-standing as opposed to custom-built is, setting up toll boths to which both sides can come (and then leave) at will. Example: eBay.

A 'portal' that charges people (one one side or the other, or both sides) to use it. A free-standing toll booth.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by toll position altogether.

Can you write a definiton for us -- in one or two lines. Can you define the optimum situation or system you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

No I can't do that and here's why.
 

NO TW, I can't. The reason? There is the Harvey Brody document that explains it all. Gives examples. Tells people exactly how to get started. Read that, then you'll know what a real toll position is.

In your examples, you say JA shows a "set it and forget it" toll. Give me ONE example, just one...

where there has been a toll position in place for more than 3 decades?

gjabiz

PS. Here is the link to the document. http://www.sowpub.net/files/harveybrody.pdf

Lemmings Abound
 

TW,

Thanks for your thoughts on the Push V Pull marketing idea.

Years ago there was some good debate on this by J. Nicholas Schmidt (here's an old article he wrote http://www.talkbiz.com/digest/emt5.html and you can find some more stuff by him in his old Profit Stream newsletter by Googling his name) who has all but disappeared from online, it seems.

His main beef was with Bill Myers who was advocating a Build It And They Will Come concept. I'm sure it related to what Bill was selling at the time. As that is a technique Bill always used - talk about something (to build interest) and then offer a product about it. He was probably priming the eShowcase pump. So readers just figured all they needed to do was build an eShowcase site and Bill would sell them a copy of his eShowcase Software.

Anyway. Bill was a Built It Guy and Nicholas was not. It was good to watch.

And the thing with such Debates is...

It ignores the Underlying Reason why a person chooses one way over another. One such reason being Funds.

See. Bill's logic as he expressed in the Direct Mail Bootcamp was... it took Industry 20 years of advertising to convince people to use deodorant (back when that was). If you don't have the Funds to sustain such Bugging nor want to spend as much Time to achieve something... THEN... drum roll... sell what people are Already looking to buy - and - they will find you because They are searching.

Halbert had the same logic... provide solutions to problems people are Already concerned about and/or are trying to solve. Radon might be a problem but as no-one seems to care about it, it makes little sense to spend the Time and Money to get into the Radon Solving market.

Interestingly... a lot of those promoting Pull marketing, use Push marketing to make their sales of their Pull Marketing How To book.

Re Jiffy Mix. Down in Australia was have a brand of mustard powder and curry powder called Keen. We even have a saying... as keen as mustard (which many people use without knowing the brand association behind it).

Keen NEVER advertises. They never have ads in TV, in the Newspaper, or Radio. They NEVER have their product in a supermarket's catalog. Their product sits Passively on the shelf waiting for those who want to cook a curry to come and get it. Do they Pay the supermarket to be there (this is standard practice in supermarkets) - or - are they like Coke (the supermarket Has to stock the product)? I don't know, nor care.

One thing they are NOT doing is Bugging people or spending money on Active Advertising. Their product sits and does nothing. It waits.

Same applies to Deb Potato (instant mash potato). It's a Forever Product. It's been on shelves as long as I can remember. No Media Advertising. No catalog advertising.

There are two makers of Brown Rice. Neither advertises. One does short grain the other long grain. Different market? Maybe. But both have been around for a lo-o-o-o-o-ong time. They BUG no-one.

Isn't that the Logic of the Yellow Pages? You don't need to convince someone to use your Type of service - they already want to which is why they are looking in the Yellow Pages. You just need to convince them to use You Instead-Of Your Competitor.

Sure, a lot of those business Could increase sales by Bugging people. But that costs MONEY and TIME. And many of those businesses don't have one or both of those things. So from a Bang For Buck point of view... they get more Return on their Yellow Pages ad or their small ad in the Trade Section of the local newspaper. And in a way, those ads Are Targeted - as much as they can be.

CEOs... remember... whether the company is small, Big or HUGE, they are still people. And they exhibit Lemming Like Behavior just as a small business owner does. That they are CEOs just means they have played the office politics game better than others.

Are there those who are the type you are looking for? Sure. Just as some of those would be in the small business sector as well. Small, Big or Huge makes no difference. You'll find it just as hard (or easy) to market to them all. Nepotism, lemming behavior, indecision, etc., exists at all levels.

The problem you face is... whatever you claim you can do, is being claimed by everyone else as well - even if they are full of it. And that's where a Satisfactory Existing Economic Relationship - or nepotism - comes into play to your advantage.

Simon Latouche once posted an interesting Story about taking 10% of your profit and spending it on advertising, without moving to a larger store or office. And as business grows, keep using that 10% of sales profit as your advertising budget - even when business is flat out.

And your Advice to the CEOs might be as simple - dudes, you has gots to spend money on advertising and bug the heck out of people and profits will come. But, it's the same message they hear from all the people selling ad space.

Here's an angle... instead of trying to beat a path to the door of the mythical Wise CEO... why not call companies and ask them if they have a Rep program - yes, be a Manufactures/Whatevers Rep or Commission Seller.

Now you are in. You then apply your Technique on a small scale for Yourself. Your sales go gangbusters. It will be noticed. And it's a pretty good bet you could get a meeting then. Then again, at that point you might not care because you're making dollars at a level that satisfies you.

Michael Ross

A JA style example...
 

Mr. Prospect, you're not recontacting your previous customers -- in a systematized, optimal way.

I will set up a system that does that.

I will not give you fish -- I will set up the fishing system.

Thenm you pay me a % of the addt'l biz that system brings in -- even after I leave it in place for you (after I leave the situation).

In other words, I get it up-n-runnin' and you keep paying me for as long as YOU use the system.

Now -- I've heard the problem is just that -- biz's want to pay for the increased biz (a %) -- they don't want to agree to do it (pay out) ad infinitum. But that IS the theory JA espouses, as I understand it.

-- TW

Re: Lemmings Abound
 

>>>>>>>>>> Re: Yellow pages. The type of biz that does best there are the same types of biz's that do best on the web. They are also the types of biz's for whom bugging people would do no good at all. They are what I call if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types of biz's (ex: tow trucks, travel agents, dating services). Problem is, many biz's THINK they are in that category, when they are not. Most biz's are NOT that kind of biz. But when they think they are, they mistakenly believe the entirety of their potential customers are the same group as 'people already looking for what I have.' The GENIUS of pre-paid legal was that it TRANSFORMED an only-if-you-need-it type of biz INTO a 'regular' biz -- OPENNING THE DOOR to bugging-style marketing ----- thus getting EXPONENTIALLY MORE customers. Note: The infomercial about the Little Giant Ladder is directed at people NOT already looking for a ladder -- yet I'm sure that infomercial sells MASSIVELY better than any lying-in-wait style marketing, no matter what the 'conversion rate' might be. In other words, if they focused on people who ARE looking for a ladder -- and snagged a giant % of THEM, that would STILL PALE in comparison (1/10?) to how many they sell by going after those *qualified* people who are NOT already looking for a ladder -- as counterintuitive as that may be! Ideally, push ads CHANGE people! Pull ads merely 'take advantage' of already-existing 'momentum,' of which there usually isn't any to speak of. I'd rather get my food as a bat does, not like a spider does. Although there are some pretty big spiders out there! --- You never said which side of the debate you fall on.

___________________________
And your Advice to the CEOs might be as simple - dudes, you has gots to spend money on advertising and bug the heck out of people and profits will come. But, it's the same message they hear from all the people selling ad space.
_____________________________-

>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference is the 'performance-based' fees. If what I say doesn't work, pay me nothing. That does differ from the newspaper or radio rep, for instance.


-- TW

PS: Did you mean lemmings or sheeple? (dno)
 

-- TW

I said Lemmings because I meant Lemmings
 

TW,

Thanks for adding some more.

As you acknowledge that Bugging people does no good for if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types of business, then the statement about Bugging is not all encompassing. Thus you must also accept that these if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't business are more your Magnetic types of business.

I understand you can accept that. But what gets your goat is calling a Push Marketing Method a Pull Method. When hinting that ALL/ANY business is actually a if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't type of business when that just isn't the case.

About the ladder. We don't get this ad in Australia that I have seen, so I had to look it up. It appears to be Ripe for infomercial marketing. There is a Gimmicky Nature to the ladder. A nature that would probably see it NOT be taken seriously by tradesmen - who usually already have the ladders they need and wouldn't be buying additional ladders in droves to justify the Little Giant Infomercial (and who may not be allowed to use such a ladder on worksites due to heath and safety rules). Hence, the Little Giant's market is the domestic market who buys into Gimmicks more so.

Having said that, let me say this... years ago I had the contract to clean some glass awnings. These awnings were quarter circle arches and in segments. A ladder from the ground would enable you to clean the first couple of awning panels but not the higher segments which were also the more horizontal segments. And a ladder placed to the wall above the top segments would not allow you to reach the segments. What we Needed was a ladder that could Bend in a couple of places to also give a quarter circle shape. The bottom would sit near the bottom panel and the top just above the top panel. The job could be done.

So when the Foldable Ladder came out it matched what we already needed. They didn't need to Convince us of its usefulness. We already knew how we could use it. So for us, it was Pull, as soon as we knew it existed. For others, though, it was push.

Again, evidence that a blanket push or pull statement does NOT apply.

However, even the if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't business can benefit from Constant Marketing - even if only in a local free suburban newspaper. Because while you or *I* might not need their services often, or only every few years, there is Always Someone who needs to use such a service. Sometimes they will Watch the ads for a month or so to make sure a business is still around. Sometimes they will call at the time they need, without such Ad Watching.

Removalists. End of Lease cleaning services, lawn mowing, etc. All fit this area.

So even though you don't need to Convince people to use your Type of service, that doesn't mean you should stop marketing. But it might mean you don't need to market in the Front of the paper where it is costly and you might not get the Return you need. But at the back where such ads have a section of the paper devoted to them and where people Look to find such things.

Even though you can say "Performance Based" you are now saying the same things as Scams and other Questionable people say. And the same thing anyone who bought Mike Enlow material say. You are unusual. The client needs too much education. A confused mind says "no". The fact is, they just do not TRUST you. Which is where the Existing Economic Relationship and any form of nepotism comes into play. And where, getting a foot in the door as a Rep of any kind will help you Prove yourself first.

I said Lemmings because I meant Lemmings. Because Lemmings hint at Self Destructive behavior. And Big Companies often do what other Big Companies do, even if it is self destructive behavior. It's worse than being a sheep because of the self destructive nature of it.

And I never said which side of the debate I am on because I don't think there is a debate. The only debate is, calling something the wrong thing. And that's not a Debate, but a statement of fact.

ALL businesses can benefit from Constant Marketing - whether they are if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't businesses or not.

Michael Ross

Aha...
 

>>>>>>>>>> Yes. Or, they could benefit from 'magnetic' (or 'passive') mrktng.


>>>>>>>>> At the risk of getting too cofusing (I know, I know -- "Tooooo late!"), I didn't say that. I said the opposite. I said most biz's are not if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types of biz's. I said many THINK they are, when they are not. Very few biz's truly are if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types. Any category that does especially well in the classifieds, yellow pages, or online ARE the if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types. It's a DISADVANTAGE to be in that category, because you must realy on the already-existing momentum. The 'pressure' coming from the other side of the door. As marketer, you cannot GENERATE your own pressure. That's why I pointed out the genius behind pre-paid legal. It transformed a biz that WAS if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't -- INTO a 'regualr' biz that COULD benefit from 'normal' BUG style mrtkng. It took it out of the DISadvantaged category (if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't), and placed into the ADVANTAGED category -- that enabling intrusive mrktng, and skyrocketing sales.



>>>>>>>>>>>> Who said anything about tradesmen??? I'm saying, if you market that ladder to the general public (or any particular SECTIOJN (demographic, etc.) of the public), you will be waaaay better off going the intrusive route, than the lying-in-wait route. The infomercial (I'm guessing) does waaaay better than any website/seo/ppc ever could -- probably by 10-1, at least. 'Snagging' as much as you can from the already-existing momentum (the pressure coming from the other side of the door) will PALE in comparrison to generating one's own momentum.




>>>>>>>>>>> There's a key phrase there - not to be ignored -- "...AS SOON AS WE KNEW IT EXISTED." Again, not to get too confusing -- but if my sales letter got to you (first), doesn't that mean my push *caused* your 'pull' reaction? That is one of the primary jobs of intrusive mrktng -- to let you know it exists, whether you were (on your own) 'looking for' it, or not.


>>>>>>>>> I'm not making any blanket statements. Sometines intrusive is better, sometimes it's not. I will say that it is often the case that 'bugging' can will do better by a factor of 10 -- and that most biz's don't realize that -- and don't realize WHY. Conversely, they 'chase' the dream of being a magnet -- and get seduced by that possibility, for LOTS of reasons.


>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.


>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.


>>>>>>>>>> I see your point. But, there are many reps who will not guarantee results -- Like I said, the radio ad rep, the newspaper ad rep, etc.



>>>>>>>>>> I see. Yes, I agree.


>>>>>>>>> I agree. But there are different types of 'constant marktng' which CAN be given labels. The labels I use (among others) are 'bugging' (or 'nudging') or 'intrusive' or 'active' vs. 'passive' or 'lying-in-wait' or 'magnetic' or 'being a magnet,' etc. What you call 'push' and 'pull.' Using terms like this is legitimate. It's not just semantics. There ARE differences. Both 'sides' SHOULD be implemented (in most cases), it's just a question of where to FOCUS one's efforts, and to what degree. ----- And I see a LOT of people run over to the wrong side of the ferry! -- and I know WHY they do it, too!

Ha...
 

TW,

Thanks for adding some more.

I wrote: When hinting that ALL/ANY business is actually a if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't type of business when that just isn't the case.

You wrote: I didn't say that. I said the opposite. I said most biz's are not if-you-need-it-you-need-it-if-you-don't-you-don't types of biz's. I said many THINK they are, when they are not.

See. Now I am confused. I said businesses are Not that type. Then you said that wasn't what you said but that businesses are not that type. So as I see it, we do actually have an accord on this.

You wrote: doesn't that mean my push *caused* your 'pull' reaction?

No. As we were Actively Looking and had even started researching the possibility of having a fixed ladder Made for just the purpose we needed, it was just a matter of time before we came across it via our many phone calls - or - acquired what we needed by another method (having it made).

We were also looking into the possibility of having a small cherry picker system mounted onto the back of a pickup. Thinking this would have wider ranging benefits. And when not in use by us could be hired out to others who also needed such a thing.

I don't recall how we eventually found that ladder. But I know it was NOT by any Mainstream Method. THEY didn't Cause anything in us.

For all I know I saw the ladder outside a store in its bent position - I'm talking 20 years ago now. So some of the details - like where I initially found this thing, which is now readily available in all hardware stores - are a little vague. But if it was outside a store, they did nothing to cause my need for the ladder. They did nothing to cause me to stop and enter the store.

All the searching was generated by Me. The moment I have no need for such a thing, all the Pushing in the world will not see my buy.

As I've said in previous threads... you could Give me a Fifty Cent CD and I'd trash it or give it to some charity store to sell. The music companies can run ads every 20 minutes for months on end. All the people I know could tell me how great it is. *I* wouldn't buy it, or even listen to it and would trash it or give it away if a copy fell into my lap.

On the other hand, I see kids newly discover Led Zeppelin and then Hunt Down all their stuff. Actively Look For albums and remastered CDs and even DVDs and hard to find audio of anything and everything they do. Acquiring some stuff legally and others via duped tapes of live performances of them before they were famous. Yet, there is no advertising done to bring this about. It is all generated By The Person.

Yes, a LOT of people do rush out and buy the moment they see ads on the TV. And it's something that's puzzled me because I've never done it or felt the urge to do it, yet have witnessed it in other people. Even from ads that were pathetic from a direct response point of view.

But a Lot of people isn't Everyone. and so, when you say in your Document, that it started with the MarktER, I see how this could be thought to be correct but also see how it is not correct. And to say... yeah but even a label in a product on a shelf is a form of PUSH, or even the dlipidated old sign out front is a sign of PUSH, is not getting into semantics. And it negates the self-created desire for a solution to a problem of the buyer that would see them find what they were after at some point in time anyway - even if that way ends up being word of mouth.

Michael Ross