Thought I'd heard 'em all:-)
 

Spoke to a prospect yesterday. I sell advertising. His reason for not advertising:

"What's the point of advertising if no-one's heard of you?"

My previous best one was a prospect who said "We have the money we need in our advertising budget, for advertising. It's in the bank waiting to be spent, but we're not allowed to touch it until business improves".

Hmmmmm . . . Dontcha love 'em?

Philip

The most common one I've run into is....
 

"We DON'T need to advertise...we've been here so long....MOST people already KNOW who we are!"

Invariably...the business owners who have laid that line on me and who REALLY BELIEVED IT (and not just saying that to "get rid of me")....
were OUT OF BIZ WITHIN A YEAR or two!

Don Alm

> Spoke to a prospect yesterday. I sell
> advertising. His reason for not advertising:

> "What's the point of advertising if
> no-one's heard of you?"

> My previous best one was a prospect who said
> "We have the money we need in our
> advertising budget, for advertising. It's in
> the bank waiting to be spent, but we're not
> allowed to touch it until business
> improves".

> Hmmmmm . . . Dontcha love 'em?

> Philip




Restaurant Daily Special Boards

Re: Scratching my head...
 

"Business is really bad now, so we have cut back on advertising." ????
Ben

Friend sent me this:-)
 

A man wakes up in an advertised bed
under advertised sheets
in his advertised pyjamas
washes with advertised soap
shaves with his advertised razor
eats his advertised cereal for breakfast
puts on his advertised suit & shoes
gets into his advertised car and goes to his office.

He sits by the phone all day waiting for calls...but nothing happens. He discusses this with his business collegues

they suggest he advertises....he suggests it's no point advertising because no one knows them so it wouldn't work

eventually the business has to close...so what does he do

He advertises it for sale

then starts to look at the cheaper advertised homes for sale...because now he has to advertise his home
because he can no longer afford the mortgage
once this has all been done he now has one final task

to look in the advertised Positions Vacant for a job with a company that won't go broke..that way he will feel secure
so he looks for a company that he recognises....one that has ADVERTISED to ensure everyone knows who thay are and what they do

Funny thing is he had that comany and security right from the start...his own all he had to do was ADVERTISE

Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

This long in the tooth, more experienced sales guy than he wants to really admit, wants to put that cat amongst the other 'no spring pigeons' in this thread:o)

Whilst its fun to look at these answers from your perspective... what they are really saying to you is they dont trust your sales proposition.

When selling to business owners... they have heard it *all*.

And at the end of the day you are still asking them to spend their hard earned money UP FRONT with NO GUARANTEE of any success.

Although they have agreed to talk to you, the fact is this is still the basis of which you are selling to them (You take all the money ... with no guarantee of success for them)

We also happen to be in an economic slump... not least contributed to by offline businesses throughout the world spending millions (if not billions) collectively on web sites that have provided diddly squat in terms of profits

(Another example of an upfront cash take from business owners with no guarantee of success)

This is on top of every business owner being bombarded with every type of sales proposition imaginable as a result of times getting tougher... oh and dont forget the impact of the information age which means slaes propositions of every type now hit them faster and from more angles than ever thought imaginable just a short while ago.

Is it any wonder it is getting harder to sell *anything*? Let alone something that has a model that keeps insisting the business owner has to put his hard earned cash at risk as a *prerequisite* to doing business.

There's a New reality of selling brewing. Times have changed forever. It's certainly going to become increasingly harder than ever to make the old rules work.

I look forward to the replies my fellow 'no spring pigeons'

Regards
Andy




The New Reality of Selling in the Information Age

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

Perception is everything - it's all in the MindSet.

> This long in the tooth, more experienced
> sales guy than he wants to really admit,
> wants to put that cat amongst the other 'no
> spring pigeons' in this thread:o)

> Whilst its fun to look at these answers from
> your perspective... what they are really
> saying to you is they dont trust your sales
> proposition.

> When selling to business owners... they have
> heard it *all*.

> And at the end of the day you are still
> asking them to spend their hard earned money
> UP FRONT with NO GUARANTEE of any success.

> Although they have agreed to talk to you,
> the fact is this is still the basis of which
> you are selling to them (You take all the
> money ... with no guarantee of success for
> them)

> We also happen to be in an economic slump...
> not least contributed to by offline
> businesses throughout the world spending
> millions (if not billions) collectively on
> web sites that have provided diddly squat in
> terms of profits

> (Another example of an upfront cash take
> from business owners with no guarantee of
> success)

> This is on top of every business owner being
> bombarded with every type of sales
> proposition imaginable as a result of times
> getting tougher... oh and dont forget the
> impact of the information age which means
> slaes propositions of every type now hit
> them faster and from more angles than ever
> thought imaginable just a short while ago.

> Is it any wonder it is getting harder to
> sell *anything*? Let alone something that
> has a model that keeps insisting the
> business owner has to put his hard earned
> cash at risk as a *prerequisite* to doing
> business.

> There's a New reality of selling brewing.
> Times have changed forever. It's certainly
> going to become increasingly harder than
> ever to make the old rules work.

> I look forward to the replies my fellow 'no
> spring pigeons'

> Regards
> Andy

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

> Whilst its fun to look at these answers from
> your perspective... what they are really
> saying to you is they don't trust your sales
> proposition.

This nails it (and I'll come back to it in the end). But ...

> And at the end of the day you are still
> asking them to spend their hard earned money
> UP FRONT with NO GUARANTEE of any success.

But that's how they got into business! They launched themselves away from the security of the corporate world, with no guarantee of success.

They bought their inventory, their business license(s), their office/retail space/webspace/whatever, all with no guarantee of success.

They pay their development costs, their tax advisor, their utility bills, their employees, all their ordinary business expenses, with no guarantee of success.

There is, in business as in life, no guarantee of success. Hard work helps. Luck helps. A track record of success helps. Intelligent management of available resources helps. (Getting good advertising and marketing counsel helps.) All these things stack the odds in favor of one enterprise over another. But they are, as you point out, no guarantees.

> There's a New reality of selling brewing.
> Times have changed forever. It's certainly
> going to become increasingly harder than
> ever to make the old rules work.

I believe the old rules still largely apply; it was the go-go 1990s that were the abberation. In order to sell something, you have to connect with each individual buyer and offer him or her real value in his or her eyes. What has become harder, is the task of cutting through the noise.

What's missing, in the above posts, is that connection to the buyer. Off-the-job, we can laugh about their little quirks as we'd laugh about our own. But on-the-job, one must connect with the person to whom one is trying to sell. And that's how to build trust in your sales proposition.




John Kuraoka, freelance advertising copywriter

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

I still enjoy sparking controversy and a good thread like this.

Thaks for your comments John

I'd like to make a major observation

You stated:
> But that's how they got into business! They
> launched themselves away from the security
> of the corporate world, with no guarantee of
> success.

Of course that is true

But one could just as effectively argue the enterprises that manage and reduce their risk are more likely to succeed.

As I say to advertisers who approach me...
"If you are so sure this will earn me as much revenue why dont we profit sahe...you'll get more bu I wont have to pay up front"...very few even *consider* it.... yet most would recognise this logicallt as a true win/win proposition

You also state:

> I believe the old rules still largely apply;
> it was the go-go 1990s that were the
> abberation. In order to sell something, you
> have to connect with each individual buyer
> and offer him or her real value in his or
> her eyes. What has become harder, is the
> task of cutting through the noise.

Too true about the noise and aout a connection. But there are new rules through cutting through the white noise and selling to lambasted prospects thereafter

As Albert Einstein said, "A problem cannot be solved by those who created it"

And the 'white noise', the skepticsm, the massive increases in sales approaches from all angles is ineviatbly creating a massive tisal wave of sales resitance that has not *existed before*

New territory requires a new map and new metods for getting over it

The old rules only apply for those that know no other way of dealing with the New Reality. Being as thats the vast majority it takes a while for the landslide to occur

I'm enjoying this

Regards
Andy


New Reality Selling

Correction... Einstein actually said...
 

"A problem cannot be solved from the same level of thinking that created it"

Apologies to any Eistein experts:o)
Andy

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

Hi Andy!

-------
> But one could just as effectively argue the
> enterprises that manage and reduce their
> risk are more likely to succeed.
-------

I agree 100%.

In fact, in a thread above (the one about "entrepreneurials:" click here for the message) I go so far as to propose that I am an independent contractor in part because I prefer to limit my risk!

-------
> As I say to advertisers who approach me...
> "If you are so sure this will earn me
> as much revenue why don't we profit
> share...you'll get more but I won't have to pay
> up front"...very few even *consider*
> it.... yet most would recognise this
> logically as a true win/win proposition
-------

It is win/win. Most media contracts won't allow it, in part because it may be difficult to track or audit impartially.

Also, most advertising is cumulative. In a multi-media campaign, one could track the end-point that ultimately produced action, but it's very hard to assign credit to one factor in the campaign or another.

That's not an excuse, by the way.
But it is a reason why, here in the real world, such agreements don't happen as often as they perhaps should.

------
> Too true about the noise and about a
> connection. But there are new rules through
> cutting through the white noise and selling
> to lambasted prospects thereafter ...

> And the 'white noise', the skepticism, the
> massive increases in sales approaches from
> all angles is inevitably creating a massive
> tidal wave of sales resistance that has not
> *existed before*
------

There is a new cynicism, especially regarding advertising and media messages. I will also add that it is starting younger. And the skepticism runs deeper.

However, I think this is also a case where our tools (media) have gone further than our development as creatures.

Once you penetrate the noise and overcome the skepticism, we are still motivated as our great-grandparents were in 1905: health, wealth, social success, etc. Our individual capacity to embrace or resist new ideas (products/services/vendors) has not changed. Those who are stick-in-the-muds today would have been stick-in-the-muds in 1805 or 1905 ("these darnfool [percussion caps/horseless carriages/internet/whatever] will never take the place of a real [flintlock/horse/distribution channel/whatever]"). And those who were early adopters then, would be early adopters today. The difference, is that today, there are more of each ... and more access to each.

-----
> New territory requires a new map and new
> methods for getting over it
-----

A new map, to be sure, or an up-to-date overlay on an old one, either of which would be essential for navigation. But a map and compass works just as well as a GPS if you know what you're doing. And both will end up giving the the same answer.

The technology has changed. Our tools have changed. Our information has changed. The environment has changed. These things not only have changed, but will continue to change.

But, so far, I've not seen a sea change in either people or the methodology by which to build a successful appeal to them.

There are new techniques of breaking through the noise and overcoming skepticism, in response to what is happening. But, having done that, at the end of the day you are still face-to-face with a human being.




John Kuraoka, freelance advertising copywriter

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

> As I say to advertisers who approach me...
> "If you are so sure this will earn me
> as much revenue why dont we profit
> sahe...you'll get more bu I wont have to pay
> up front"...very few even *consider*
> it.... yet most would recognise this
> logicallt as a true win/win proposition

Hi guys! New poster here....had to respond to this as a former yellow page advertising exec! :)
We actually "partnered" so to speak, with the phone company and did a Guaranteed Ad Program with our customers....they would be assigned a # that would only appear in the phone directory that we published; the calls to this # would be tracked and the customer could actually SEE how many calls they were receiving from our directory every month. If they did not receive the agreed upon call count, they were prorated a refund...win/win!

Thanks!
Lisa


Website not finished but ready for biz!!!

Oh my God... what is "Total Quality Management" sounds like...
 

> Hi guys!

Hi Lisa!

> New poster here....

Welcome. Put on your thick skin... text writing has no tone and can easily be mis-understood :o)

> had to respond
> to this as a former yellow page advertising
> exec! :)

Advertising Exec? What is that? Is that a fancy term for someone who sells Yellow Pages advertising? Or is that someone who "manages" the salesmen and women? (BTW... we - me in particular - don't believe on PC.)

> We actually "partnered" so to
> speak, with the phone company and did a
> Guaranteed Ad Program with our
> customers....they would be assigned a # that
> would only appear in the phone directory
> that we published; the calls to this # would
> be tracked and the customer could actually
> SEE how many calls they were receiving from
> our directory every month. If they did not
> receive the agreed upon call count, they
> were prorated a refund...win/win!

Let me get this straight... YOU (as in the YP) teamed up with the phone company to track the client's phone calls. IF the number of calls received by the client did not match the mutually agreed upon number (agreed upon number based on ad size, I assume) then the client would get that month's worth of advertising refunded. Is that right?

The people offering the guarantee were also the ones doing the monitoring? Oh gee. Excuse me for my doubt... but can't you just see it... "Hey guys, Bob's Meats hasn't received the agreed upon call numbers for the month... quick... make some calls to bump his numbers up so we don't have to refund the money."

I suppose they paid extra for the "guarantee" too, right?

Don't get me wrong... performance guarantees are great. In this case, however, there are some serious issues. After all, the YP was in partnership with the phone company.

Anyway. Looked at your sorta-website. What on Earth is "Total Quality Management"? Sounds like a load of high-falut'n corporate gobble-de-gook to me. I'm serious... what is "Total Quality Management"?

Michael Ross


Please click here

Re: Come off it guys... lets get real!
 

Actually, there was a bit of a twist.

The guy I first met was dead keen to advertise, thought it was a great idea. He's the state manager although I knew he had to defer to the MD, with whom I could not get contact. Since it was impossible to get to the decision maker, I ran with what I had.

It was the MD who made the statement I quoted. Sure I take what Andy's saying - I'm merely amused at the mindset of some business people.

Actually in the second example I quoted, the situation was identical. This time the state manager just shook his head at the attitude of HIS boss. Didn't make sense to him either:-)

All the best

Philip

Re: Oh my God... what is "Total Quality Management" sounds like...
 

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the welcome! Glad to be a part of this forum.

Hope you put on your extra layer of skin today as well!

"Advertising Exec" was merely a generalized term I used in order to get my point across, which, by the way, was not supposed to be a discussion of my former title. But, hey, I'm game for any discussion!

Total Quality Manager, which I'm sure does sound a bit "high-falut'n", but then don't most things in the corporate world?? The idea behind Total Quality Management is mainly "continuous improvement" both internal & external. In other words insuring that things run as smooth as possible both for the customer and inside the company, ie. workflows of all departments, etc. The TQM generally answers only to the President, or in my case, the GM, and therefore has the responsibility of everyone below him to different extents. Hope this clears it up a bit for you.

Now, on to the issue of the ad guarantee. These monthly reports could be accessed by the customer at any time during the month. Any call that came into his business by the assigned telephone # would be on that report. We only "counted" calls that were over a certain # of minutes long, meaning these were most likely ones that were customers or potential customers. So, if the report total was, say, 63, we only counted ones that were over 3-4 minutes long. I think that shows the fairness to some extent. The report shows the name & number that called, the time of day & length of the call, whether or not the call was answered or if the business line was busy and also showed the zip code of the incoming call. Kinda hard to rig that! Oh, and no....the guarantee & the monitoring were not coming from the same people. WE, as in the yp company, gave the guarantee; the phone company sets up the # and anyone, including the customer who has the passcode, can monitor the calls coming in.

My "sorta" website is still in the building stages. I went with one design, then after lots of researching and taking advice from others, I decided a different design would work better. Hey, thanks for visiting it though!!!

By the way, Michael, just for kicks....what is your title??

Lisa

> Hi Lisa!

> Welcome. Put on your thick skin... text
> writing has no tone and can easily be
> mis-understood :o)

> Advertising Exec? What is that? Is that a
> fancy term for someone who sells Yellow
> Pages advertising? Or is that someone who
> "manages" the salesmen and women?
> (BTW... we - me in particular - don't
> believe on PC.)

> Let me get this straight... YOU (as in the
> YP) teamed up with the phone company to
> track the client's phone calls. IF the
> number of calls received by the client did
> not match the mutually agreed upon number
> (agreed upon number based on ad size, I
> assume) then the client would get that
> month's worth of advertising refunded. Is
> that right?

> The people offering the guarantee were also
> the ones doing the monitoring? Oh gee.
> Excuse me for my doubt... but can't you just
> see it... "Hey guys, Bob's Meats hasn't
> received the agreed upon call numbers for
> the month... quick... make some calls to
> bump his numbers up so we don't have to
> refund the money."

> I suppose they paid extra for the
> "guarantee" too, right?

> Don't get me wrong... performance guarantees
> are great. In this case, however, there are
> some serious issues. After all, the YP was
> in partnership with the phone company.

> Anyway. Looked at your sorta-website. What
> on Earth is "Total Quality
> Management"? Sounds like a load of
> high-falut'n corporate gobble-de-gook to me.
> I'm serious... what is "Total Quality
> Management"?

> Michael Ross

Re: reality!
 

You stated -

> But, so far, I've not seen a sea change in
> either people or the methodology by which to
> build a successful appeal to them.

> There are new techniques of breaking through
> the noise and overcoming skepticism, in
> response to what is happening. But, having
> done that, at the end of the day you are
> still face-to-face with a human being.

You are correct. It takes very similar ideas and creativity to sell a battery powered hand fan with the customer's logo on it today, as it did to sell the old "Funeral" fan of a century ago.

But, thanks to the internet, I can sell both of those products to customers all across the US and beyond. And, I can email their digitized logo to the supplier across the US or across the Pacific in the same hour, cutting the delivery time needed.

Very few special products have disappeared completely, but some, including ashtrays, book matches, and ice picks have dropped to serving only niche markets. Meanwhile, the old hand fans are more popular than ever.

Dennis Bevers


Promo products for businesses large and small at great savings!

Re: Want to expand your options on your new site?
 

Lisa,

I checked out your website. Looks like it should have some good potential.

If you'd like to offer additional products to the same business customers, you could add use your knowledge of advertising and increase your earnings.

The Kaeser and Blair dealership, selling promotional advertising operates similar to an online affiliate. As an independent agent, you are only responsible for sales and marketing. K & B handles all the credit, billing, sales tax collection and reporting for you.

And since the dealerships are free, it wouldn't cost you a penny to "test market" the opportunity and prices online or off.

Just a thought.

Dennis Bevers

Re: Want to expand your options on your new site?
 

Hi Dennis,

Thanks so much for your comments! The website is slow-going as i am learning as I go where HTML is concerned! But it will get there!

Interesting idea you have concerning the advertising idea! Where can I get more info on this?

Thanks, again!

Lisa

> Lisa,

> I checked out your website. Looks like it
> should have some good potential.

> If you'd like to offer additional products
> to the same business customers, you could
> add use your knowledge of advertising and
> increase your earnings.

> The Kaeser and Blair dealership, selling
> promotional advertising operates similar to
> an online affiliate. As an independent
> agent, you are only responsible for sales
> and marketing. K & B handles all the
> credit, billing, sales tax collection and
> reporting for you.

> And since the dealerships are free, it
> wouldn't cost you a penny to "test
> market" the opportunity and prices
> online or off.

> Just a thought.

> Dennis Bevers

Title Schmitle
 

Hope you put on your extra layer of skin
today as well!

I don't have skin. I am a computer generated interactive cyber personality programed with fuzzy logic. I "live" in a mainframe that takes 32 terrabytes to store all of me. You could think of me like "The Matrix." I am everywhere and nowhere.

> "Advertising Exec" was merely a
> generalized term I used in order to get my
> point across, which, by the way, was not
> supposed to be a discussion of my former
> title. But, hey, I'm game for any
> discussion!

Well... what is an Advertising Exec? Or doesn't that "title" actually exist. Is it something you made up? Maybe to... impress us all? Hmm? :o)

So what was yout title there? We don't play silly title games here. But seeing as your brought up titles first...

> By the way, Michael, just for kicks....what
> is your title??

I don't believe in titles. But if I must have one, then the one I've previously mentioned on this board will do fine. It is...

Michael Ross
Pychic. Alchemist. Scholar of the Royal House of St Jumbali. Appointee of the Court of Civil Councils. Entrusted Keeper of the scrolls of Molex. Croc wrestler. International man of mystery. Apprentice Sith Lord. Professional cow-tipper. Part-time Spy. Mouse Pychologist. Computer Potatoe. US Noogie Champion. Ideas Man. Renowned Finger-Painting Artist. Spoon. Astronaut. Astro-Turf Grass Blade Inspector. Stunt Double. Money Grubber. Klingon Translator. Human Divining Rod. Yogie. Human Guinea Pig. And Founder of the Milwaukee Fishmonger's Cult.

BTW... I am really an IRS inspector. Have you filed your taxes?

Re: Title Schmitle
 

Hi Michael,

> You could think of me like
> "The Matrix." I am everywhere and
> nowhere.

Sorry...didn't see The Matrix...does that mean I should just not think of you at all?? :)

> Well... what is an Advertising Exec? Or
> doesn't that "title" actually
> exist. Is it something you made up? Maybe
> to... impress us all? Hmm? :o)

I assure you...if I had nothing better to do than try & impress people, it would not be done by using the words "Advertising Exec"! (besides, seems the words Total Quality Manager did a number on you & I didn't even have that in my post. ;o)

> So what was yout title there? We don't play
> silly title games here. But seeing as your
> brought up titles first...

At certain times, games are great ...especially for those of us that need to...R E L A X...(hint hint). However, to answer your question - again - my title was Total Quality Manager. And, not to be too particular, Michael, but I believe it was you that first mentioned it....

> I don't believe in titles. But if I must
> have one, then the one I've previously
> mentioned on this board will do fine. It
> is...

> Michael Ross
> Pychic. Alchemist. Scholar of the Royal
> House of St Jumbali. Appointee of the Court
> of Civil Councils. Entrusted Keeper of the
> scrolls of Molex. Croc wrestler.
> International man of mystery. Apprentice
> Sith Lord. Professional cow-tipper.
> Part-time Spy. Mouse Pychologist. Computer
> Potatoe. US Noogie Champion. Ideas Man.
> Renowned Finger-Painting Artist. Spoon.
> Astronaut. Astro-Turf Grass Blade Inspector.
> Stunt Double. Money Grubber. Klingon
> Translator. Human Divining Rod. Yogie. Human
> Guinea Pig. And Founder of the Milwaukee
> Fishmonger's Cult.

Guinea pig....hmmmmm....close to what I would've chosen for you..... :)

I look forward to reading more posts from you, Michael!

Lisa

I may have fuzzy logic but that's no reason to make it fuzzier
 

> Hi Michael,

> Sorry...didn't see The Matrix...does that
> mean I should just not think of you at all??
> :)

It doesn't mean anything. Then again... it could mean everything. You take it to mean whatever you like.

Of course, if you don't think of me at all... you won't see my sly little tricks. I'll slip under your radar.

> I assure you...if I had nothing better to do
> than try & impress people, it would not
> be done by using the words "Advertising
> Exec"! (besides, seems the words Total
> Quality Manager did a number on you & I
> didn't even have that in my post. ;o)

Did a Number On Me.

Colorful words. What do they mean in plain speak?

> At certain times, games are great
> ...especially for those of us that need
> to...R E L A X...(hint hint).

Hint Hint. Oh... here we go... this is that... I'm going to say something without saying something game. I get it now.

However, to
> answer your question - again - my title was
> Total Quality Manager.

Well... that's all I wanted. Not so hard now was it.

See... I couldn't put two and two together. It might have been obvious to you. But it wasn't to me because you first said you were and Advertising Exec. The TQM bit on your website does not say it was at the same time as your career in the advertising place. See... you know it is... but it is not stated. Thus, confusion happens.

And, not to be too
> particular, Michael, but I believe it was
> you that first mentioned it....

You know... one thing I cannot stand is when people say... "Not to ________ BUT" and then they go an do/be the thing they said they were not going to.

Like you... "Not to be too particular" and then you go and be too particular.

Why can't people just be brave about their actions...

Lisa... check the thread... you were the first one to tell us all you were an Adverising Exec. You were the first person to use a title.

> Guinea pig....hmmmmm....close to what I
> would've chosen for you..... :)

Ummm... okay. I don't get it... whatever you are trying to hint hint at.

I told you... I am a computer generated cyber person programed with fuzzy logic.

Being fuzzy to me... making me try to guess what you mean... causes my code to enter infinite loops.

Just come out and plainly say what you want to say. I can understand that.

> I look forward to reading more posts from
> you, Michael!

Oh goodie. Another fan. :o)

Michael Ross

Re: I may have fuzzy logic but that's no reason to make it fuzzier
 

Michael,

> Did a Number On Me.

> Colorful words. What do they mean in plain
> speak?

I'm more curious to know what it means to you.

> Well... that's all I wanted. Not so hard now
> was it.

I didn't think anything in my original post started out hard...of course, I have been wrong before....

> See... I couldn't put two and two together.

> It might have been obvious to you. But it
> wasn't to me because you first said you were
> and Advertising Exec. The TQM bit on your
> website does not say it was at the same time
> as your career in the advertising place.
> See... you know it is... but it is not
> stated. Thus, confusion happens.

I would apologize for confusing you, but we both know that I would not mean it and that would give you further information to analyze and dispute wouldn't it? (certainly not to say that is a bad thing!) :)

> And, not to be too

> You know... one thing I cannot stand is when
> people say... "Not to ________
> BUT" and then they go an do/be the
> thing they said they were not going to.

> Like you... "Not to be too
> particular" and then you go and be too
> particular.

> Why can't people just be brave about their
> actions...

Is there a fine line between being brave and being rude? Let me know your thoughts on this!

> Lisa... check the thread... you were the
> first one to tell us all you were an
> Adverising Exec. You were the first person
> to use a title.

You are absolutley right!! However, you were first to steer the original point of my post towards a discussion about titles.

> Oh goodie. Another fan. :o)

Not just yet, Mikey...I just enjoy having someone to debate with!

Lisa

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It's like pullin' teeth
 

> I'm more curious to know what it means to
> you.

It doesn't mean anything to me. That's why I asked what it means.

See. I don't play silly word games. If I don't know what something is I ask. Directly. A direct answer back is appreciated. And I thought I would get one from someone who says they write business letters.

> I didn't think anything in my original post
> started out hard...of course, I have been
> wrong before....

No. Nothing started out hard. I asked direct questions and got fog back.

> I would apologize for confusing you, but we
> both know that I would not mean it and that
> would give you further information to
> analyze and dispute wouldn't it? (certainly
> not to say that is a bad thing!) :)

Aw Jeez...

> Is there a fine line between being brave and
> being rude? Let me know your thoughts on
> this!

I can't be bothered.

> You are absolutley right!! However, you were
> first to steer the original point of my post
> towards a discussion about titles.

I asked what something meant. That is not steering. That is asking a direct question. IF you had bothered to answer directly, this sub-thread would not exist.

> Not just yet, Mikey...I just enjoy having
> someone to debate with!

Lisa, my name is Michael, not Mikey.

And if you call being evasive, not clarifying things you say when asked and "having a go" while trying to appear "nice," debating, then I must be from a different universe.

Michael Ross

Re: It's like pullin' teeth
 

Michael,

Sorry I don't respond in the way you feel that I should but I believe in just being myself.

I started out responding to a couple of posts that you were not even a part of. No problem as I know that forums are open for anyone to participate in the discussion and I'm always glad to respond and discuss things with anyone. But you were downright insulting while at the same time implying that the business that I was affiliated with was cheating customers.

Normally, I would probably have been insulted and prone to defend myself in a different manner if someone had made statements as you did. However, you plainly stated to me to put on my "thick skin" as some statements may be misunderstood. So, I took what you said with a grain of salt and responded back, to some extent, in the same manner that you did.

I have no intention of debating this with you any further, mainly out of respect for other members on this forum. However, I will say that, yes, I do claim to write business letters and unless I directly do not hold up to that claim, you have no right to insinuate otherwise...so tread carefully.

AFter reading several other posts from you in this forum, I have seen that this is not the first time you have been on the verge of being what I would define as insulting to other people. I participate in a few other forums and have never had this problem before; I can assure you the manner in which you respond to people does not give a good impression.

Lisa

Dear oh dear
 

Sounds to me like someone's chucking a tanty...

> Sorry I don't respond in the way you feel
> that I should but I believe in just being
> myself.

Good. We like it when people are themselves.

> I started out responding to a couple of
> posts that you were not even a part of. No
> problem as I know that forums are open for
> anyone to participate in the discussion and
> I'm always glad to respond and discuss
> things with anyone. But you were downright
> insulting while at the same time implying
> that the business that I was affiliated with
> was cheating customers.

See. This kinds of thing irks me. After all this... now you claim I was insulting. But then just leave it at that. No clarification HOW I was insulting... or an example of where this insulting took place. Just a blanket statement... "you were downright insulting" and then you run away... "I have no intention of debating this with you any further..." and then put on your good-guy badge... "mainly out of respect for other members on this forum."

I got news for ya... the forum loves threads where people go head to head.

As for "implying"...

I implied nothing. I stated I was doubtful. I was honest about it. And gave an example to show it. And I still stand by it. The Yellow Pages is a BIG organisation. It is impossible for one section to know what another section does. Jeez... even car salesmen don't know how much money the dealer makes when they sell a car below invoice - yes the deal makes money when a car is sold below invoice. You seem to have taken my doubt about the Yellow Pages quite personally. Odd.

> Normally, I would probably have been
> insulted and prone to defend myself in a
> different manner if someone had made
> statements as you did. However, you plainly
> stated to me to put on my "thick
> skin" as some statements may be
> misunderstood. So, I took what you said with
> a grain of salt and responded back, to some
> extent, in the same manner that you did.

Oh... now it's my fault is it... you were just responding back like I did. But hang on... a minute ago you just said... "I believe in just being myself"

So now you're tell me (us) you weren't being yourself?

> I have no intention of debating this with
> you any further, mainly out of respect for
> other members on this forum. However, I will
> say that, yes, I do claim to write business
> letters and unless I directly do not hold up
> to that claim, you have no right to
> insinuate otherwise...so tread carefully.

Again... I insinuated nothing. I was up front and open and said, "A direct answer back is appreciated. And I thought I would get one from someone who says they write business letters."

That is the truth. You see... a business letter is direct and to the point. Your answers were not. As you claim to write business letters I expected a business letter like response... direct and to the point.

WHAT do you think I am insunuating? (I told you... I don't play stupid games. I come right out and say something.)

> AFter reading several other posts from you
> in this forum, I have seen that this is not
> the first time you have been on the verge of
> being what I would define as insulting to
> other people.

Thank you for your views.

And please allow me to also inform you of how I see your posting...

Blah... can't be bothered informing you.

But if you had in fact read other posts by me, you would have noticed I state things plainly. I cannot be bothered with insinuation games and whatnot.

I participate in a few other
> forums and have never had this problem
> before;

What problem are you talking about?

Is that the problem of people (me) keep asking the question until you actually answer it?

So you are more used to people accepting the foggy waffley answer. Fine. So you know... I won't accept fluff answers when I want to know something. If that makes you THINK to answer... than I believe I have accomplished something.

I can assure you the manner in which
> you respond to people does not give a good
> impression.

That's what you think.

Other people are quite fine with the way I respond to them.

By the way... I am still waiting to find out what "did a number on me" means. (Guess I'll never find out now you have decided not to participate in this with me anymore. HA!)

Michael Ross

hold on!
 

Okay Michael, I know you don't need my defense of you but I am going to chime in anyway!

> I started out responding to a couple of
> posts that you were not even a part of. No
> problem as I know that forums are open for
> anyone to participate in the discussion and
> I'm always glad to respond and discuss
> things with anyone. But you were downright
> insulting while at the same time implying
> that the business that I was affiliated with
> was cheating customers.

Okay, first it sounds like you are implying that Michael shouldn't have responded since he wasn't apart of the original disscussion, but using that logic, you (and everyone else shouldn't have replied - in fact no one should ever reply to a post).

Micheal was "dwonright insulting"? That's funny! I have never found him insulting (and it's not just becuase you share the name of my son and father, Michael ). He is however a "straighter shooter" and tells it how it is.

> Normally, I would probably have been
> insulted and prone to defend myself in a
> different manner if someone had made
> statements as you did. However, you plainly
> stated to me to put on my "thick
> skin" as some statements may be
> misunderstood. So, I took what you said with
> a grain of salt and responded back, to some
> extent, in the same manner that you did.

Hmm - maybe with some actual information instead of the hints and "fog". Oh, I have heard of your "title" before and it has always seemed to me to be insubstantial. I have another story regarding that but I don't want to get off topic (remind me Michael to mention foggy claims sometime)

> I have no intention of debating this with
> you any further, mainly out of respect for
> other members on this forum. However, I will
> say that, yes, I do claim to write business
> letters and unless I directly do not hold up
> to that claim, you have no right to
> insinuate otherwise...so tread carefully.

Hmm - "tread carefully" - what is that supposed to mean - a veiled threat (against what i'd like to know). I will say that if your letter were anything like your posts, they would be filed in my circular file cabinet. And, don't stop out of "respect" for the members - we love a good debate, as long as it isn't clouded in fog.

> AFter reading several other posts from you
> in this forum, I have seen that this is not
> the first time you have been on the verge of
> being what I would define as insulting to
> other people. I participate in a few other
> forums and have never had this problem
> before; I can assure you the manner in which
> you respond to people does not give a good
> impression.

Hmm (again) ... Michael doesn't make a good impression?! The only reason I read this was because I saw he had posted. And problem? What problem? Michael (who, by the way, is highly respected by many here) simply asked for clarification.

Now if you want insulting, get me on a roll

Have a good day,

Tam