Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Lately I'm seeing things with new eyes.

It all began when I started seeing the world through the eyes of others.

I've been doing that so long, I've 'adopted' their eyes, and now their eyes ARE my eyes.

The result: I won't mention any names, but when I watch certain marketing 'gurus,' I now blink my eyes and say, 'Hey wait a minute, these guys are HUCKSTERS!'

The people I formerly glorified, are hucksters.

Not slick.

Not clever.

Not to be emulated.

Just common hucksters.

I think many of the people I'VE been glorifying, ARE hucksters after all!!!

They are NOT trying to help.

They ARE just trying to line their own pockets.

They DON'T really know what they're talking about.

To make matters worse, hanging around in an environment of hucksters can rub off on you. It can cause you to blur the line between non-huckster + huckster -- and lead you into crossing the line without realizing it.

__________________________________________________ ____

NEWS FLASH: The 'real' world assumes ALL 'marketing people' are hucksters!!!
__________________________________________________ ____


On the other hand, people who ARE marketing types know that's not true.


----- But what if it almost IS true?


What if many of the people you've been glorifying ARE hucksters???

So --- what's the purpose of this post?

Welp -- it's 3 purposes really (even though a teacher cannot appear until the student is ready).

1) To encourage you to open your eyes too, CLEARLY see who's a huckster + who isn't, and to STOP glorifying hucksters.

2) To warn you against becoming a huckster yourself (or, if you've already become one, to encourage you to return to the 'good' side).

3) To warn you that others may ALREADY see you as being a huckster -- and they may be right!

-- TW

PS: Another purpose of this post is to see what all of you think about this topic. It's a subject that reaches to the very foundation of what we do -- and it's been bugging me a lot recently. It gets in the way of really helping people. An unseen force that must be dealt with somehow.

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

I agree with you, TW. Too many folks on the internet are nothing more than glorified hucksters. No matter the 'deals' they offer, no matter the 'reasons you should...' the bottom line is transferring my money to their pocket.

There ARE good people out there with some altruistic motives but they're fewer in number than they used to be, I believe. Maybe it's just my perception but I think this 'shrinking of caring' attitude is partly why folks like me become jaded and fed up with the internet a lot of times. You can only be pushed so far, disappointed so many times, before one looks elsewhere for the good life. Been there, done that.

That's not to say that I will necessarily give up on the internet but it sure has changed my view of it and the ways in which I am willing to particpate. Perhaps that is the angle that needs exploring: just what are the consequences of too much hucksterism? Then, how do we caring, responsible, folks differentiate ourselves from the hucksters?

Interesting topic, potentially. Let's see what others have to say.

Sandi Bowman

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

If I've read this right, TW and Sandi are both saying that:

Hucksters are bad, and altruists are good.

I don't think that concept is even close to being true.

In fact, show me anyone who makes the claim "I'm doing this strictly for others...", and I'll show you a lying huckster.

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Not quite, Bozo. There's a happy medium ground called 'enlightened self-interest' in which one conducts business but does it with an eye to not harming others in the process.

An example might be that, if you know (or strongly suspect) that someone can't really afford a software (or has something already that will do the job) and you try to convince them that they can't live without your version, you are then doing them a DISservice and putting your wants ahead of their needs. An enlightened self-interest would say that 'this is something I think you'd be happy with but you can get along with what you already have until later'. The hope being that they'll appreciate your concern and, when the time is right for them, seek out you and your product.

Sandi Bowman

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Maybe the process is a little like the political arena.

Generally, people get into it for the right reasons, but it quickly falls down and becomes the wrong reasons.

Or like the cycle of domestic violence -- where, sadly, the victim becomes a victimizer.

It's like this...

Go to the bank.

Go to the bank.

Go to the bank.

Go to the bank.

Go to the bank.

Then a (black) light bulb goes off somewhere in the brain that says...

"Hey wait a minute, maybe I can ROB the bank!"

THAT'S when the line gets crossed.

It's cranial corruption.

I think it happens a lot. The goal needs to be: Stay away from hucksters, and don't succumb to the invisible 'tug' to cross the huckster line yourself!!!

-- TW

PS: It's not just internet marketing people I'm talking about. It's any marketing person (on or off line) who's selling something or some service.

PPS: Again, without mentioning any names, in th elast few days I've seen videos from two 'gurus' in particular who the general public would IMMEDIATELY peg (CORRECTLY!) as being hucksters. But we, INSIDE the niche -- in our delusional STUPOR -- don't SEE/PERCEIVE the hucksterism. One huckster has cloaked himself as some kind of middle-aged surfer dude type. The other is LYING to the camera (in my opinion), saying, "I'll give you a $375 discount because the copies I selling at this low price are 'SCUFFED UP, DAMAGED copies (etc.). -- A ruse so old, it's pathetic. He's just desperately trying to unload the last 9 copies of his 'course.' The real world would immediately SEE that he's just some aging huckster who needs some extra cash -- right away.

Altruism is a crock
 

Sandi,

Thanks for towing the altruism / brother's keeper line.

Doesn't work. Nor should it be the path taken.

The simple Fact of the matter is this...

If YOU (generic You meaning, whomever it applies to) want to Do Good - to Practice Altruism; to Save The Children or whatever your cause is - then YOu go do it. On your own. Without trying to lay guilt trips onto people to have them join Your Quest.

Example Only: If you want to treat animals hurt in car incidents, go do so. Off your own bat using your own funds. Do NOT petition the local govt to pass laws to slow cars down, erect signs, put in traffic slowing devices, give money to some Sanctuary you need built and so on and so forth. Because Now you are, in essence, stealing money from others for your Good Works - having the govt do the stealing on your behalf.

Do Not propose to know what's Best for someone. You are Not their keeper.

If you go down that line like in your example, there is no stopping. So, you deem it best for them Not to buy your software. Will you also deem it best for them not to buy that six pack of beer - and then push to have laws passed according to how YOU deem things to be Best for people. Where do you stop?

Now your use of the word "Enlightened" is to paint a picture that, anyone who thinks otherwise is thus not Enlightened. And that kind of Play is a trick. A Manipulation and I call it out for the ruse it is and expose it for its trickery.

No different that other Word Tricks such as... it's naive to think... the implication being, if I think a thing I am naive; and as we don't like to think of ourselves as naive, we would thus succumb to the trick.

As Bozo said, those who preach they are "doing for others" are lying hucksters. Looking for a Good Guy Badge.

Michael Ross

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Michael, no matter how you try to twist the words to suit yourself, the truth is that people can, and do, sacrifice when necessary for others...and sometimes even when it isn't necessary. Has nothing to do with distorted thinking that you choose to define altruism as.

I don't have time for this B.S. right now as I have guests coming for an extended stay and have enough work to keep ten people busy. Just say that I totally disagree with you and will until the day I die.

Sandi Bowman

Hucksters - They're everywhere
 

TW,

Thanks for warning.

Correct me if I am wrong...

When you say Huckster you don't mean just a Seller who does so in a showy manner, you mean someone who, for want of better word, is lying. For example...

Young fellow comes to a discussion forum to Learn how to market things. After a month or two of the most inane questions, sets himself up as a Marketing Guru who can help you make a million dollars, while he still works a job in a photo lab - a part time job cause that's all he can get, not cause he's making all this money.

THAT, is the sort of thing you mean when you use the word Huckster, right?

Well. It ain't just in the Marketing Arena. It's in just about any arena you can think of... weight loss; muscle gain; blemish removal; math learning; language learning; music learning; physical fitness; and so on.

Which reminds me... years ago there used to be a fellow who was a semi regular at Bill Myers' old forum. He was a Fitness guy who used to write a newsletter. In one issue of his newsletter he wrote about... CowBioMetahydrate - a made up name.

He said how... the product was just some deHYDRATEd backyard grass clippings that had been Powdered. The claim was... take this stuff could make you as strong as a bull - after all, bulls eat grass and are pretty strong, right.

It was an Interesting issue. As it basically gave a run down of the Muscle Building Additive industry. A bunch of hucksters. Selling cheap powders at high prices. And selling Gimmicky Machines for home use.

Like the infomercial I just saw. Selling a machine called Malibu Pilates www.malibupilates.com - a gimmick if ever there was one. A $300+ gimmick. Because dang... I can't just sit in a chair and lift my legs, or do pushups on the floor and so on. I Need that machine. Bullsh*t.

But TW. It ain't even in just these Markets. It's all around. Whenever you see/hear a news item; whenever a politician opens their mouth. It's all bullsh*t. And if you turn off the tube; listen only to your own CDs and downloaded MP3s, and don't lay eyes on a newspaper; your world will not end. People might be surprised when they mention something They think is Big but you haven't heard of it. But you'll be better for it.

It's good you have awoken. Most people never will. Most people do not want to. They are so enured in their mental slumber they will fight to stay asleep.

Usually, the only way to wake someone fully is... to remove them from the environment - from the group mind think - and let them awake on their own.

That you are awaking suggests to me, some isolation from the herd has taken place within your life. (I'd be interested to know how close this is - have you noticed an Isolation, for whatever reason, which preceded your gradual awakening?)

Oh. The joy of waking is... you can never go back to sleep and succumb to the spell. It's a one way street. You can live among the comatosed but you can never become one again.

If you are interested. I suggest you do some research into brain Washing techniques - they aren't what you imagine them to be. Might surprise you to know people like Tony Robbins use them. A guy I think of as a Master Huckster.

Michael Ross
III

Figures. Typical.
 

Sandi,

Thanks for commenting further.

"the truth is that people can, and do, sacrifice when necessary for others...and sometimes even when it isn't necessary"

I agree, Sandi. People do - at times - do things for others without needing a Reward. But the key is... at times.

I'm sitting in a diner looking out the window. There's an old guy on one of those three wheeled electric buggy things. Sitting calmly. Then suddenly, he has gripped the control and started to reverse Fast. His face has a look of shock as he doesn't know what's going on. Because the wheel is turned, he is reversing backward in an arch. He is almost side on to the gutter now. His back wheel slips off and the whole machine tumbles down spilling him onto the asphalt.

People come running to help. They Selflessly help him. They sacrifice their time - and further appointments - to help him. And do so without thought of reward or good guy badge. They just saw someone who needed a hand and gave it.

These moments enter our lives continuously. And we enter people's lives, lend a hand, and leave, also continuously. All of us, in our own ways.

But that doesn't make us Altruistic.

Now. As per usual Sandi, you make a bunch of rebuttals - as fact - and an excuse about why you cannot continue the discussion.

"Distorted thinking I choose to define as altruism".

See. Said matter o' factly without backup. And none likely to come as "you have guests".

Now, if you look up the meaning of the word Altruism you'll see I have distorted nothing. Altruism Is the acting for the benefit of others. And it is you that simply claim I have distorted it - again, without backing up your claim and showing How I have done this.

Unbacked Up Claims. Another Trick I often see used. Usually in politics though. Any by those in Minority Groups and other Affinity Groups - be they based on race or sex or animals or environment or other.

Sandi, I know you disagree with me. And I with you. The difference is, though, throughout all our disagreements through the years I have backed up what I say. While you have Always made an excuse/reason not to continue. Not to back up what you say. When asked to do so.

Michael Ross
III

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Wow - I'm a little surprised by a couple of the comments. Is that really the mentality of the business world today? Extract what you can from who you can, regardless of consequences. I hope not! I wouldn't say it's about altruism - of course we are all trying to make money - and we need to get it from somewhere ... from someone. But where is the line between making a buck and plain old human decency? I see someone who wants to do a post card mailing ... a struggling new start up - am I going to try and shove 10,000 pieces down their throat when I know they won't use that many in a lifetime? Of course not, I'm going to give them what they need. Sure, I'll make suggestions on how they can enhance the product - even if it costs more. But only if and when I think there's a benefit to them. I like to believe that there are still tons of business people out there who understand the principles of value and customer service. Upselling someone to something that is completely useless, only to make an extra buck - that's not a value, nor is it good customer service. It's the kind of thing that creates a bad reputation for the person and/or the industry he represents. Two examples ... door to door vacuum sellers. I don't know if they exist anymore, but they notoriously sold an overpriced item using high pressure tactics. They became synonomous with rip off and as a result carried a horrible reputation. (Used car salesmen too?) More recently - the (so called) housing crisis. Many of the fingers have been pointed at unscrupulous mortgage providers. People are losing their homes ... and why? Because someone didn't explain all the pitfalls of a program. They pushed clients into something risky and unstable, not caring one whit about what happens after the sale. Well kudos to them! Many of them are probably out of work because of this attitude and the entire economy has taken a huge hit too. All because someone cared more about making more money than actually doing the right thing. You may call it altruism, but I call it (what it should be anyway) standard practice. Long term success comes from offering a good product or service, good value and standing behind what you do. If you have to use deceptive tactics to move a product, then maybe it's time to consider a different one.

Now there's the whole question of personal responsibility - and I'm a huge proponant of people taking responsibility for their own actions and decisions. But that doesn't excuse people from taking advantage of their ignorance.

IMHO

Oh, and I would define a huckster as someone who peddles something of little or no value, pretending and/or intonating that there is value.

Some of you may have missed my point...
 

My point was not about altruism.

Altruism is akin to charity.

There's a whole world BETWEEN charity + hucksterism!

Hey, I'm a big believer in the profit motive. Hell, I'm even a big believer in generating OBSCENE profits.

Ain't nothing wrong with turning a profit!

What my OP was driving at was crossing the line between being an entrepreneur WITH scruples to one without scruples -- as well as being able to SEE hucksters for what they are, instead of glorifying them, because you are too deluded to recognize their hucksterism.

What's the difference between a legitimate entrepreneur and a huckster?

That's hard to define. It's like art -- you know it when you see it (hopefully).

There's nothing wrong with offering something of value and getting (well) paid for it.

It's when that system starts to include ripping people off -- scamming them -- that the tide turns.

I'm suddenly becoming AWARE that there are waaaay too many THINLY VEILED charlatans out there.

Maybe they were once really trying to operate on the 'good side' (and I DO NOT mean goodie-two shoes, altruistic, warm+fuzzy helpfulness) -- but then they turned to a life of SLEAZY 'crime' by 'robbing the bank' instead of playing by the rules.

The gurus who are actually playing their audience FOR FOOLS!

THAT'S what I am suddenly becoming aware of.

I see them cloaked in all kinds of ways -- but like the final scene in The Matrix, I can now see them clearly.

Some are cloaked as well-meaning, almost-jolly, overweight, aging guru types -- some cloak themselves as middle-age, new-age surfer dudes -- and those are the creative types.

Some are so LAZY, they cloak themselves in a 'gig' that's 20+ years old + VERY TIRESOME! -- That of a wise-cracking, wise-ass, (supposedly) hip, 'edgy' take no prisoners, lone wolf, gruff, brusk, (supposedly) clever, cool marketing whiz.

How very staggeringly, colossally BORING + PREDICTABLE + TIRESOME (and UNinspired)!

Again, my point here is, there's PLENTY of space between warm+fuzzy altruism, and hucksterism.

No need to drift to either extreme.

-- TW

Remipub's post show that he DID get my point! Thanks! (DNO)
 

It's just that we posted at the same time!

Michael -- I haven't isolated myself - but here's what I did do...
 

I started training my mind to see things through other people's eyes.

I (mentally) 'borrowed' the eyes of people who are NOT in the niche.

I think a niche is like a circle or ring. Stand inside the ring, and you hear lot's of loud noise that is the chatter (+ dreams) of all those in the niche. It's deafening.

Place your feet just outside the circle -- and you hear SILENCE.

Feet inside -- deafening DIN.

Feet outside -- silence.

Inside, outside, inside, outside -- etc.

THAT'S what I trained my mind to do.

Call it 'remote viewing,' if you will.

What I saw when I was on the outside looking in (read: minus the delusions), was not pretty -- and still isn't.

The worse news is, this is how much of the real world (outside the circle) sees US! Whether we like it or not.

Are we hucksters?

Well ---- perception is reality -- and if the shoe fits, etc.

It's something that must be dealt with -- if we are to progress, imo.

And to deal with it, we must first admit to the problem/hurdle (again, imo).

Cheers.

-- TW

Long term vs. short term...
 

I think what it often boils down to is whether businesspeople take a "long term" or a "short term" approach...

When businesspeople take a "long term" approach, it "naturally" leads to a situation that is both good for them and for the customer. A long term approach usually means trying to make repeat sales to their customers. A customer won't buy repeatedly unless they are happy. So a businessperson with a long-term view will naturally want happy customers, so they'll become repeat customers.

With a long term approach, the pressure is on the businessperson to make sure their customers are happy. It's win/win!

However, when businesspeople take a "short term" approach, then there is more tendency to exaggerate, lie, etc. They're not thinking about repeat sales - just making the sale (usually a high priced one), taking the money, and disappearing. There is much less incentive to please the customer - since they're not aiming for repeat sales anyway. There's a bigger chance it will be win/lose.

I think, as long as you take a long term approach, you'll "naturally" head in the direction of trying to please your customers. I think your chances of success are also higher, if you aim for repeat sales, rather than once-off sales. I believe it is a more "solid" approach to building a business...

- Dien

Arrogance + use of persuasive techniques =
 

the potential (and TEMPTATION) for playing one's audience FOR FOOLS!

Scamming them -- saying to one's self, "Hell I'll get the same amount of profit if I give them real value, OR NOT. Maybe it'll be an even bigger payday for me if I DON'T give them any real value!"

There's an old joke, billed as the ultimate "New Yorker's" joke, supposedly reflective of their famous who-gives-a-crap, tough-love attitude (I grew up in NYC, so I can say this) -- the joke goes like this...

Joe: I've got this great LIVE BEE collection -- with bees from all over the world, with dozens of different species and types. It is a truly wonderful collection.

Henry: Really! Where do you keep all those bees?

Joe: In this cigar box right here.

Henry: WOW! -- But don't they sting each other in there? Don't they kill each other?

Joe: F**k 'em.

______________________________________

THAT'S hucksterism.

Playing your audience FOR FOOLS.

Using sleazy USED CAR SALESMEN techniques -- thereby DISRESPECTING your potential customers, and then not giving a crap about it -- because the payday will be the same (or better) anyhow.

And -- unfortunately -- that maybe EXACTLY how the (real) world is viewing YOU, whether you like it or not! -- Whether you're actually doing that, or not!

The real world may very well think you're wearing a plaid jacket -- even if you're not!

-- TW

Re: Arrogance + use of persuasive techniques =
 

TW. This is a very interesting thread you started. I've enjoyed both your posts' and the responses of other members. Thought provoking stuff here.

I've had such a hard time learning copywriting for just those reasons. I couldn't get past the part of trickery; of preying on the emotional weakness of those in the niche.

I got to the point where it became obvious that long copy is necessary for those products that hucksters push on the gullible. They have to wear you down.

I just recently purchased piece of software (QuickBooks). Their copy simply tells you what the software does...made it easy to make a decision Unlike software being sold by the hucksters.

There's nothing wrong with persuausive techniques, but...
 

There's nothing wrong with long copy + other persuasive techniques (imo any way) -- the danger comes when those techniques are used to peddle SNAKE OIL.

The danger (+ temptation) comes when the marketer gets the 'brilliant' idea (?) that persuasive techniques WORK, whether the product/service being pushed is valuable, OR NOT!

Also, some of the more 'clever' (read: manipulative) persuasive techniques are GLORIFIED by the marketers -- with the sense that they allow the marketer to 'get one over on' the audience. With a 'hehe' gloating attitude about the 'unfair' sneakiness of it all.

The mindset being, if it doesn't work sufficiently using the legitimate route, then just switch over to the sneaky route -- and join the huckster crowd... morals b'damned.

My 2nd point being, th world may be thinking that about you (already), even if you're still on the legitimate side.

-- TW

Re: Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...
 

Michael,

Our visit with our son, a ONCE A YEAR EVENT (usually) due to school, work, and distance IS IMPORTANT. YOU, on the other hand, have ZERO IMPORTANCE in my life.

I find you to be extremely manipulative, egotistical, and with a mean streak that distorts intelligence and threads to your choosing instead of allowing the free flow of constructive comment.

I choose not to respond to you except for this statement of my position.

Sandi Bowman

Why Bother
 

Sandi,

Thanks for your Statement of Position.

Again he asks... what have you by way of Backup to your additional accusations of me?

Got any examples of this Mean Streak you reckon I have? Got any examples of how I supposedly Distort Intelligence. How about being Manipulative or Egotistical? Or is it, as I mentioned previously, you're just throwing the terms out there as if they were fact and then leave it at that.

Here's the thing, Sandi.

If you make a Statement at least have some way to back it up when asked. Otherwise, don't make the statement.

Running away when asked about your "statements said as fact", and then posturing any excuse as to why you cannot backup what you said, garners you nothing. Better to not even make the excuse.

Specially, when you have time to say you have no time, or won't respond. Why bother taking the time to respond to tell me you aren't going to respond?

Fine. You choose not to Respond to me. So be it. However, it won't stop me Questioning things that don't gel with me. Such as if someone, during this free flow of comment, says something I find Not Right.

Have the strength of your convictions - to stand by them and back them up - is my take.

Anyway. I think it pretty obvious to those who know what Galt's Gulch is, what my position is on a great many things - going by my designated Location.

Michael Ross