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What women/men want
Ref: TW's post from the charisma thread wherein he states it's okay to make a movie about what women want but you don't want to make a movie about what men want.
My question is: why not? Why is it okay to exploit women in this way but not men? Please explain. Sandi Bowman |
Re: What women/men want
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I think TW was making a joke, along the lines about men having a "one-track mind"... He's actually saying women's minds are more sophisticated than men! TW, whose side are you on, anyway? ;) Best wishes, Dien |
Re: What women/men want
Hi Sandi...
This is a taboo topic. It's a venus/mars thing. Men + women are DIFFERENT. Both sides are legitimate -- but many aspects are hard to UNDERSTAND. You may or may not realize this: Many (most? all?) men are shouldering a heavy inner burden. There is no way they can discuss how their mind *really* works with many (most? all?) women. In the words of Jack Nicholson, women could 'not handle the truth.' The truth is, it goes way beyond the dismissive, "boys will be boys." It is biological, and cave-man-esque. It's funny to joke about -- but it's a real serious topic, because it messes with the relationship between men + women. THAT'S why it would be impossible to make a movie called "what men want." Women would not watch the movie, because they would find it impossible to believe. THAT'S why men have to keep it all secret, and cultivate a civilized, outer "boy scout." Here's a BRAVE guy who's trying to bring this all out into the open, in an objective + intelligent way (though I have not listened to the cds, etc.)... http://stores.dennisprager.com/Merch...de=DPMSN4PT-DL I applaud him -- and I question his sanity. Just as I believe men are not capable of really understanding how women's minds operate, I don't think women can fully appreciate or comprehend how a man's mind works -- ABOUT THIS TOPIC. Like I said, it's funny to joke around about this topic -- but really there's nothing funny about it. What does it have to do with marketing? I guess it could be about understanding one's intended audience -- and how, maybe, sometimes that is completely IMPOSSIBLE! Cheers. -- TW |
Re: What women/men want
TW, I think you need to study some psychology. While it's true no one (male or female) really understands the mind and motivations of another...even if they're shared voluntarily because most folks have no idea of their own motivations. They hide the truth because they don't have the guts to face their own frailties as mere human beings. This is not a gender thing...it is the way it is.
As for the 'horrible truth' that's hogwash. What woman can't accept the fact that any man lusts after anything attractive when he's in the mood. What civilized men do about it is what divides them from the mere reactive uncivilized types. What's so horrid about admitting we are the animals that God or nature intended us to be? Reality doesn't hurt...it frees us to use our minds and bodies to higher purposes. Sandi Bowman |
Re: What women/men want
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I'm glad you feel that way. You may not (or maybe you do) realize how deep the 'problem' is (I put the word problem in quotes advisedly). I think the 'problem' is much deeper than most women realize. That's why I say the 'movie' could not be made -- the 'depths' would be revealed. When you say, "What civilized men do about it is what divides them from the mere reactive uncivilized types," I'm not sure you realize what a real (sometimes minute-by-minute) struggle it is. I think you think you know -- but I don't think you really do. But of course there's no way for me to know that, for sure! (whew) Maybe the movie really SHOULD be made -- that way we men will know for sure the truth is out, and we can see what women's reactions to it are. That link I included about the cds on this topic show that the discussion is needed, overall. It's hard for men (in some cases) to express the whole dynamics, because it's VERY UNlike the dynamics of 'what women want,' and it's very "base." (embarrassing, confusing, powerful, semi-uncontrollable, etc.) The description of that info-product puts it very well -- better than I can. -- TW |
Re: What women/men want
Well, this is neither the time nor the place for this fascinating discussion.
I know that both men and women need to stop buying into the hype that the exploiters put forth. Women aren't Madonnas any more than men are beasts. Take away the cultural B.S. and you'd find that men and women aren't that far apart. A study of some primitive societies where sexuality is as natural as breathing shows that both men and women share many of the instincts (drives?) that men in this society have usurped for themselves. It is also true that women have their share of the blame by going along with the Madonna hype instead of admitting the truth. Movies about 'what women want' are entertaining to women because they're so far removed from reality they can laugh at themselves...and the stupid men who promote those fantasies. Maybe men could benefit by the same kind of movies about themselves. The movies would definitely point up the absurdities in our culture if well done. Sandi Bowman |
Re: What women/men want
Not that far apart?
Ummm, let's look at the **** industry (aka the supply/demand marketplace) + who 99.99999% of the customers are (male). Why is that? I think it is BEGUN to be explained by that guy's info product. I agree the madonna complex is not accurate. But the 'men are beasts' theory, pretty much IS (true). So, when you say, 'not that far apart,' I think my theory of women not catching on to the true situation, is accurate! You think you know the 'depths,' but you really don't. I contend that, if you DID know the 'depths,' you wouldn't say things like, "not that far apart." Again, I use as a BAROMETER/INDICATOR the fact that the # of women who "use" **** is statistically ZERO compared to the % of men who do. Men ARE different from women in this regard (raw, impulsive sexual LUST -- aka: the inner PERV). Heck, even Jimmy Carter copped to it, remember? It's a 'problem' men have to deal with on an almost second-to-second basis. No, women are not pure angels, that's true. But to say men + women are 'pretty much the same' is inaccurate, imo. -- TW |
No difference at all
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You can't know the depths from the shallow end of the pool. You're only looking at one aspect of the human critter, being sex. Set aside all the minor differences between the genders, and actually go to the 'depths', you'll find that men and women both want exactly the same things. They want to be accepted, and they want to be needed. Charismatics need the adoring crowds to feel accepted and needed. The crowds need to feel accepted and needed by their leader. Both sides of that combination get tons of what they want. It's the same on the individual level. That's why you will see a fat ugly guy with a great looking lady, or the other way around. People will whisper "What can he/she possibly see in him/her?". The answer is that each one of them is supplying the other's need to be needed and accepted. |
Re: What women/men want
I wasn't going to post this, just keep it in my idea file but, based on your last post, TW, I changed my mind so...here it is:
Well, TW, this isn't the place for the type of posts that could be made about this topic so I'll just state a couple of facts and let it go at that. I'm sick and tired of hearing that men are so super-sexed and all that and that women don't have problems in that area. Super wrong! Sometimes the 'draw' that a woman feels for a member of the male gender is VERY strong and almost irresistible as you phrased it. Men don't have a lock on attraction. This erroneous belief is a manifestation of men's Madonna Complex more than reality. As for Dennis, well, he's walking the fence, even so. More of an apologist than anything else. Like his stand on pornography, for example. If men are so aroused naturally by women, why would they need ****? I'll tell you why: because of their impotence and need to dominate and feel superior to women. **** fulfills their baser instincts toward women (look at how much **** is abusive and demeaning to women) that they're secretly deathly afraid they might act out...and end up in hell or jail (is there a difference?). Serial killer Bundy admitted that he used **** prior to committing his offenses so he could stop seeing women as people and just see them as objects. **** kills the best instincts of people. Men need to stop buying into the hype and come down to earth and realize that they, too, use their emotions, albeit in different ways sometimes than women. Women need to stop buying into the Madonna myth and admit that they're human beings, too. Men and women aren't really that far apart sexually or emotionally. The major differences are cultural, not actual. A study of some primitive cultures where sexuality is as natural as breathing shows this to be true. Sandi Bowman P.S. Bozo is right on, as far as it goes, IMHO. |
Re: What women/men want
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I've heard the opinion that "bodice-ripper"-style romance novels are the "equivalent" of what you're talking about for women... Having never read one, and not being an expert in these things, I have no idea whether there is some truth to this, or whether it is way off the mark! - Dien |
Re: What women/men want
The difference is the importance of "visuals."
That's why I asked what the female 'winner' of the most sexy award looked like (in Sandi's example). Her point was that what's 'sexy' is surprising, because it does not seem to contain 'the visuals,' as one would expect. My counterpoint is that, when it comes to 'what men want,' the visuals ARE important! When you say the bodice-rippers (romance novels) are the female equivalent to ****, I agree. The FEMALE equivalent. Men do not read those + women do not look at **** (generally). So, they may be 'equal' but they are not THE SAME. Let's ask this question: Why does **** appeal to men and romance novels appeal to women (generally)? What's the ***DIFFERENCE?*** Whatever your answer -- there IS a difference. I'll leave it to everyone to decide the REASON for that difference -- but I don't see how one can deny that there IS a difference. I think the difference is "the visuals." That's part of what that guy's info product addresses. Pardon the pun, but it cannot be overlooked! -- TW |
Re: What women/men want
Sandi...you are not going to really like this but TW is right on the way men think. It is very tough for women to really to actually deal with and that why this subject is really something to talk about with other women.
I totally see what he is saying because we do work VERY differently. Sex is a BIG motivator for men and it VERY difficult to repress at ALL times. It is a constant battle. I mean just look at it from a pop culture way. TW made a good observation regarding ****. I mean there are thousands of websites, videos and magazines made for men. Other then one Playgirl magazine, I have never seen anything for women. Why is that? Now go to your local book store and you will see more then 20 or 30 BRIDAL magazines for women...guess how many wedding magazines are made for men? ZERO!... there is no such thing as a Tuxedo magazine or wedding magazine for men because there is not market for it..... When it comes to what men basically want .....I am not saying that companionship does not fit into equation but...men are VERY simple compared to women.... Sorry if this bothers you Terrance |
Re: What women/men want
Terrance, thanks for your views.
Like I said: study primitive societies that are without our hangups about sexuality and observe how little problem it is for both men and women. Men and women in this society are subject to a ton of conditioning by the people who wish to exploit sexuality for their own reasons. This conditioning is a BIG part of the problem that you and TW seem to have with your sexuality. Sorry to be so blunt but it's all Pavlov in practice...with men being the dogs. The only other reason men would have such a huge problem with controlling their drives is that they are those rare folks with extra male chromosomes in their physical makeup. For these unfortunates, it can really be a problem. Sandi Bowman |
Re: What women/men want
Sandi
First, the reason most other primitive societies do not have the hang ups like we do isn't because of the men ....it is the conditioning of modern females that has caused the issues. The thing that effects me and about every other male on the planet could be some conditioning to a small point...but there is MUCH MORE biological evidence also. The male sex drive makes us do things in a very simple (non-complex way) Females are the ones where it is virtually impossible to understand because everything is complicated to quantify. I want you to check this link out to describe exactly what I mean from a SCIENTIFIC point of view http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/se...-women-compare Terrance |
Re: What women/men want
Well, I went to the thread. Didn't learn anything new. That is very old 'news' and most of it has been disproven. You or anyone else will read into what they wish to so I can't really comment any further on it. There were no 'controls', no scientific criteria established, and the questions were improperly phrased for a true research process. They never did state a hypothesis to prove or disprove.
Thanks for the input folks. Looks like I have more urgent things to take care of now since hubby is not well. Gotta run... Sandi Bowman |
Re: What women/men want
Sandi
Now Sandi....you know you cannot leave yet... Now you asked the question.....why? This is why TW replied that it would not work because most people cannot handle the results and therefore just brush it off. Now I just provided you a link to some reseach done by scientists that relates to this sort of thing on men/women behavior and motivations and you blew it off.... Terrance |
Re: What women/men want
Here's the struggle/INNER dialog (that men go through -- and I think women do NOT go through this same struggle)...
The 'problem' of 'the visual'... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." A large part of a man's brain produces NOTHING but that ONE simple mantra -- and there's nothing he can do about it. Again -- here it is... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." Then comes... The problem of guilt... "If something as TRIVIAL and SUPERFICIAL as that (how a woman LOOKS (only)) is as powerful and important to me (in ways I can't control or understand), then I must be a complete CAD!" This is NOT the same as a Harlequin novel (if it WERE the same, men would read Harlequin novels -- and they DON'T!). A romance novel eventaully reaches the same 'conclusion,' but the PATH it takes to get there is very, very different. One difference is... THERE IS A PATH! Thousands of words are taken up as the PATH. Again, I have just given you the "path" that takes place in men's minds -- here (again) is the complete "path"... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." You have just learned the *complete* "path" men have in their minds. You may notice a lack of nuance or romance -- or even words. Yes, in terms of sexuality, men are no more complicated than this... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." Now, LOVE is more complicated than that -- for men too. But sex? Nope. For men, sexual attraction can reliably be summed up as... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." And no, I do not believe women must struggle with this same inner dialog every second of the day, as men do. The difference is the SIMPLICITY + the VISUAL aspect. That's why **** appeals to men + not to women (generally). **** is simple + visual -- and it fits in with the simple inner mantra... "If you look like [certain body shape], I want to **** you, RIGHT NOW." PS: the flip side of that is... "If you do NOT look like [certain body shape], I do NOT want to [etc.]" I had this discussion with a friend (female) who has two teenage daughters who are overweight. She was trying to tell them weight doesn't really matter -- it's what's inside that counts, blah, blah, blah. I told her she was lying to her daughters, and I was sure they KNEW it. Women who do not fit into our society's VERY NARROW idea of what the 'proper' body shape is (to be sexually attractive) ARE at a disadvantage (in terms of being sexually attractive to men). That's just the truth. Men *DO* objectify women -- the visual *IS* of utmost importance to them. THAT'S the point of that info product. The point is, "Your husband's NOT a pervert." (not YOUR husband, Sandi -- I mean that radio guy's point is wives (in general) shouldn't think of their husbands as being 'perverts' because they thrive on VISUAL (only) attraction -- such as ****, women passing on the street, etc. Now, you say, well that's all CULTURALLY INDUCED. To which I say -- YES! It is all culturally induced! -- So is using a knife + fork to eat, using toilet paper, and eating cows instead of dogs. What is considered sexually attractive is ***ALWAYS*** culturally induced!!! In the 60's M. Monroe was a sex symbol -- today she would be considered a 'fat chick.' |
Re: What women/men want
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Look at the number of people who apply lipstick. 99.99% are women. Does that mean that women have this innate drive to apply lipstick while men don't? The answer is complicated. Yes - women could have this ingrained notion of being more attractive - the peacock theory to win more attention - which makes them apply more lipstick. (But in other animals - its usually the male that strive for attention - so that is a conundrum I haven't gotten my mind around yet.) On the other hand - you can see a clear hand of conditioning and societal expectations in play too. Women *start* applying lipstick because other women apply lipstick. European men in 19th century used to wear elaborate wigs and apply makeup too. And then they stopped. What - suddenly their brain chemistry changed? Tattoos have an about equal male to female ratio. But belly rings - majority are put up by women. That is not something ingrained or hardwired in the brains. Its a society affecting actions thing. Its the same with **** and every other male-female difference. * Yes - the brains are different. * And Yes - the society we live in affects our actions too. Last I heard... the biggest market for gay **** is.... women! So maybe why 99.99% of other **** is bought by men is because folks are not making **** women like? Or women don't have this ritual of showing other women **** when they are 13-14-15? There are a 101 such reasons why men buy more **** that has nothing to do with how our brains are wired differently. Its nature-vs-nurture. Both nature and nurture play a hand on how we behave. But I always like to believe that nurture plays a bigger role - because we have direct control over it. |
Re: What women/men want
Nature -- nurture -- yes, it's some of both.
But when you say we have control over nurture, that's not quite right, imo. Culture moves as culture moves. It evolves on its own, pretty much. It's not controllable. Evolution cannot be controlled, really. If you cut off the tail of each lab mouse that's born, that doesn't cause later mice to be born with no tails. You cannot enter a native village and 'tell' the people having those tall rings around the necks of the women, are not 'sexy.' As I said, what is considered the 'ideal' of sexual attractiveness is ALWAYS culturally induced, and almost NEVER has anything to do with what is 'normal,' average or even natural. It is a manifestation of the 'cultural norms.' These evolve on their own, at their own pace -- often inexplicably, and not based on 'reality.' And when you say: Last I heard... the biggest market for gay **** is.... women! -- that still does nothing to compare the % of men who 'use' **** to the % of women who do. |
Culturally induced (nurture)...
Ankesh...
Here's a cultural difference between your country + mine... http://www.indax.com/toilets.html Your custom + my custom are both culturally induced (the result of nurture). No amount of 'control' would result in my culture adopting your custom(s). If it evolves that way 'on its own,' then yes. But if it doesn't, then no. Same with my culture's view of women's body shape, for instance. As I said, Julia Roberts could never have starred in a movie titled "Pretty Woman" if she weighed (even) 10 lbs more than she did. How about these terms... "Trophy Wife" "Hottie" These terms mean something VERY, VERY specific to white American males. Yes, there may be SLIGHT variations -- but let's put it this way: Those terms certainly do not bring to mind the total *diversity* of shapes that a woman can be. The so-called vital stats (actual measurements of bust, waist and hips) and overall 'look' of any woman that could be described in those terms (trophy wife and/or hottie) are within a very small, narrow margin. Everyone instantly knows (VISUALLY) what is meant by those terms. Culturally induced? -- yes. 'Controllable?' -- no. So, it really makes no difference if men are as they are because of nature or nurture, in terms of what can be done about it. It is what it is. -- TW PS: My country even has cultural variations among races (in general). It's not PC to make blanket statements about 'cultures' based on race, etc. But they sure do exist in reality. I believe that (IN GENERAL) blacks in the US have a different 'ideal' body shape for women, in terms of sexual attractiveness to men in that culture. The 'thick' quotient tends to be higher, for one thing. |
Re: What women/men want
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Of course you can control nurture. You may not be able to control how you were raised up. But you have a lot of control on how you will raise your own kid. Where. What schooling. What kind of friends. What food. A lot of it you can control. You can't control the history. But you can control how your kid perceives that history. That is why many 2nd generation Chinese and Indian kids don't have the same hangups in USA. Even though they are born and bought up in USA - they go on to get higher grades and better jobs than the public - on average. Quote:
There was actually an experiment done. A bunch of monkeys were put in a big cage. A banana was dangled from the top of the cage. Whenever a monkey went to get the banana - all the other monkeys were given a small electrical shock. Pretty soon - whenever a monkey from the group attempted to go after the banana - all the other monkeys got together and pounced on him. So pretty soon - no monkey went for the banana. Then the researchers removed one monkey from the group and added a new monkey. When this new monkey tried going for the bananna - all the other monkeys pounced on him. Soon he learned not to go after the banana too - but not why. The researchers repeated the switch - removed one monkey and put up a new monkey in its place. The new monkey went for the banana and got pounced upon. And soon learnt the ways. After a few switches - no monkeys from the old original group who were given electrical shocks remained in the cage. But yet - when a new monkey went for the banana - all the other monkeys went after him. Behavior can be conditioned TW. |
Re: What women/men want
Behavior can be conditioned.
That's not the same thing as saying CULTURE can be conditioned or modified. Behavior is one thing -- yes, I can 'control' how I raise my kid. That is my 'vote.' But that does not change the culture. I voted for candidate x -- candidate y won. candidate y is the president. it is what it is. someone can say they PREFER women who are size 16 -- that doesn't stop every maniquin in every store from being a size 2. the culture does what the culture does. unstoppable. how many people are in your country. what conditioning would have to happen (on what scale + frequency) in order to 'induce' the use of toilet paper? could it be done intentionally? How about the reverse? getting americans to NOT use toilet paper? what would your plan be to intentionally induce that? -- TW |
Re: What women/men want
What is culture but a sum of all behavior of the masses?
Sure culture can be modified. Because bahvior can be modified. It just takes time. Don't confuse lack of speed with inability to change. Compared to 10 years back - a lot of toilets in urban metropolitan India have toilet paper or water sprays that allow you to not use your hands to do the cleaning. Who liked hip-hop music 15 years back? Hardly a few thousand folks? Yet today it is the most prevalent music genre out there. If that is not cultural change - then I don't know what is. |
Re: What women/men want
Thanks TW for a stimulating conversation.
Some time back - some professor proclaimed that men are inherently better than women when it comes to math. He based his research on the average SAT scores of boys and girls. And he does seem right if you take the *proof* under consideration: women have rarely come up with a math breakthrough. But you know that this is completely nurture based right? Nature hasn't made men better at math than women. But our societal norms have made the math gap wide. Because hard sciences is usually considered a male field. That is changing according to professor Janet Hyde. http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/07/are...s-at-maths.php --- In USA: 30% of all people coming for treatment of sex addiction are females. In UK - 20% of all people coming for treatment of sex addiction are females. In India I'm sure this number is less than 10% or so. What - women in India and UK are hard wired differently than women in USA? Not really. Its just that not as many women in India and UK come forward. They have similar impulses. But societal norms make them suppress these impulses. Men and women are not too different. And at the same time men and women are not too similar either. |
Re: What women/men want
There's a big difference between culture that changes because it's evolving (on its own), and changing culture *on purpose* (controlling it).
I never said cultures don't change (evolve) -- I said you cannot make them change *on purpose* (by 'controlling' it/them). |
Re: What women/men want
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You could tell that to all the revolutionaries the world has seen. Edison. Jesus. Gandhi. They changed cultures. On purpose. Or at least they were the "trimtab" that changed cultures. (I agree that culture is too big to be *controlled* though. But it can be guided.) |
Re: What women/men want
And as another world changer says:
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford |
Re: What women/men want
You brought up about hip-hop music becoming prominent in pop culture.
I'd say that evolved. The culture 'flowed' in that direction. It was an unstoppable change. No one could purposely 'arrange' it otherwise. One could not make, say, big band music become 'all the rage.' The culture goes where it wants to go. Same goes for the 'ideal' female body shape for 'sexual attractiveness.' It is what it is. A VERY narrow definition (in every sense of the word). I agree maybe it SHOULDN'T be that way. But it IS that way. Makes no sense. Not based on reality, what's 'normal' or average or realistic, etc. It is what it is. It has changed over time (Marilyn Monroe would be a 'fat chick' now a days) -- and I'm sure it will change in the future. All we can do is sit back + watch. |
Re: No difference at all
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Re: What women/men want
Thanks TW.
Re: hiphop - you may want to read up on the Wu Tang Clan. How they became one of the early trimtabs to bring hiphop to the mainstream and become successful themselves. You could say that if there was no Wu Tang Clan - someone else would have taken their place to take hiphop mainstream. But who knows if you would have been right or wrong? (On a related note: the boy band rage of the mid to late 1990s was completely manufactured by a small group of people.) Re: dress sizes. As far as I know (and I may be wrong here): Fashion magazines were the trimtabs that drove the thin trend. But recently - Dove is doing very well in using non-models in their ads. They are getting very good results. And I see the trend changing. We will always witness the Rolex* effect - but should start seeing more healthier and average looking models too. * Rolex effect = Rolex positions itself as a watch very rich people should buy. But the people who end up buying Rolexes are those folks who want to show others that they are rich. In hindsight - you can see where all the cultural changes originate from. And if you are really passionate about the cause - and want to - you can try to bring the change yourself. (You could do what Dove did.) Or you could just say it is what it will be. And do what you've always been doing. But I stand with my point: cultures change. And there are people who *start* this change of culture. And you could be one of those change catalysts and pioneers if you really wanted to be. |
Re: What women/men want
Thanks folks for keeping up with my jargon.
I just realized that not everyone may know what a trimtab is. Quote:
A big ass ships direction can be changed with little to no effort by moving the small little trimtab! Bucky knew one little guy could change the world if he positioned and leveraged himself properly. |
Re: What women/men want
Dove, etc. are doing nothing to change the direction of the culture -- statistically speaking. It/they are a drop in the ocean. Others have tried to 'change' this trend -- unsuccessfully. Ugly Betty. The movie Shallow Hal. Jennifer Lopez. Queen Latifah. The new Fox show -- "More to Love" Spain. Nature.
Creates a CONTRARIAN mini-buzz... a wag the dog... then... it all gets quickly paved over and everything snaps right back to where it was before. The term, I think, is homeostasis. What men want -- to find out the kind of body shapes men in a society WANT to look at (yes, men do objectify women -- it's the visual thing -- cannot be changed/stopped), just look at the free marketplace of sexual attraction... ****. You'll find an extremely tall bell curve. The vaaaast majority 'going for' a particular body shape... with very little variation. I assure you, it's not the pron that is dictating the results -- it is the **** RESPONDING to the 'needs' of a society/culture. And, again, that particular, popular body shape bears no resemblance to what the 'average' body shape is. It (the culture) pays no heed to what is normal, average, natural, realisitc, etc. It wants what it wants as its current 'ideal.' Also, there's always a fringe sector that goes for 'the opposite' that one can trot out as 'proof' of the contrarian. But it is statistically zero. Yes, there are guys who PREFER overweight women -- there are also guys who prefer amputees. All these groups have their clubs, sub-cultures, websites, etc. But they are not changing anything, in the scheme of things. They are tiny blips on the radar screen everyone just ignores. As for the world-changers you listed (Jesus, etc.), one COULD argue that it was NOT they who changed culture/society -- but rather it was culture/society to CREATED them! Brought them into prominence + power because of a societal NEED, etc. There's no way of knowing. Would the boy band craze have 'taken hold' if society/culture had not wanted/needed it at that moment? There's no way of knowing. What if those same "extremely clever" promoters had pushed an all-LEMUR band -- would that have worked too? Can one have the goal of changing society in a PARTICULAR direction, then sit down and create that change on purpose? One can only look at the things that did indeed accomplish that, and then dub them (in HINDSIGHT), as successful -- not taking into account that there may have been 100,000 UNsuccessful attempts by other to change society in ANOTHER direction. No conclusions can really be drawn. |
Empowering and disempowering points of view...
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Given that you say you could argue either way, why would you choose the disempowering way to look at things, rather than the empowering way? Looking at things the disempowering way just leads to the point of view that - you can't change anything, so why bother? Of course, if you look at things that way, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy! You can't change things anyway, so you should do nothing - so in the end, nothing changes (because you didn't do anything). I personally do believe that there are "movers and shakers" who have changed things, in ways they wouldn't have changed otherwise. Sometimes it's (in part) due to their power of persuasion... If one person can persuade another person, then surely that one person can persuade two people... three people... a whole crowd of people... a nation of people... Anyway, I think you do yourself a favor if you choose to look at things in a way which is empowering to you, rather than disempowering. However, everyone has a freedom of choice to look at it the way they want... :) Best wishes, Dien |
Re: What women/men want
Hi Dien...
I look at it both ways. Sometimes one way, sometimes the other. Sometimes looks can be deceiving. Do you know the book Outliers? Also, it's kind of ironic that Ankesh is arguing FOR the people-can-influence-other-people-to-change side... and I'm arguing the opposite. Usually with me and him, it's the other way around. Can 'demand' be created -- or altered? Hmmmm? -- I wonder sometimes. And other times I'm sure it can be. -- TW |
Re: What women/men want
Actually, hip hop was pretty well established well before 15 years ago. It had been gathering momentum from the early eighties with Grandmaster Flash, the Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, The Beastie Boys, etc.
I'm just sayin'... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music "By 1986 their releases began to establish hip hop as a fixture of the mainstream. Rap and hip hop became commercially successful, as exemplified by The Beastie Boys' 1986 album Licensed to Ill, which was the first rap album to hit #1 on the Billboard charts." Quote:
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Well LOOK-EE-HERE (as if on cue) something that ties all this to MARKETING!...
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Men Women Music Maths Oh My
Interesting.
Sandi, you posed the question then said this was not the place to discuss such things - but YOU asked the question. Anyway. Maybe this will help you understand TW's stance...on a construction site the other week - dominated by men - a woman rigger was working. A co-worker said to me, "how do you think she'd feel knowing every guy on the site wants to **** her". If a girl walks onto a construction site, within minutes every man knows she's there, even if they haven't seen her they've been Told by others who may have seen her - or - who heard it themselves. Granted, in such a male dominated industry it is surprising to find a woman working in any of the fields. But that isn't why Word Spreads. Have you seen the comedy skit by French and Saunders. They dress as two fat old guys looking at a mag with a nice girl in it. One says "I'd give her one" the other says "I'd give her two", I'd give her ten", I'd give her a hundred" and hip gestures are made. It's funny in the truth of a male dominated crib room. TW's stance is... a man seeks something to **** and all woman unknown to the man are viewed this way. Woman on the other hand lean towards a Provision scale. Let me elaborate... Men and Women were outfitted with glasses that could track where the eye was looking. The results were... Men checked out the behind, map of tassie area and breasts and their eyes flittered between them. (Hence the joke about something on a sexy woman's face and the other guys says "I didn't get that high"). Woman were checking out the man's hands and oddly his shoes and face. Men in suits were given much longer look overs than guys in casual gear. The results are indicative of the "men are looking for someone to ****, while woman are looking for someone to provide". It's as simple as that when stripped down to it. And this ain't something new. Look at Islam. The entire idea of covering the woman is so the men who cannot keep it in their pants (control themselves) will not be tempted. Even with covered up women the urge is still there. Onward. Ankesh, the HipHop or Rap Crap market as I call it, didn't Evolve anymore than any other Popular music. The Music Giants decided THAT is the type of music they will promote and end of story. Boy Bands don't make their way up through the pub scene and into the limelight. They are Nothing and then they are Something. ALL orchestrated and created by Big Music. Radio stations don't play Unheard of Talent to let us know what is out there. They play what they have an agreement with Big Music to play. Sure there are Some musicians whom this does not apply to - but - they aren't what makes up the overwhelming vast majority of the top 100. What makes it up are Manufactured Artists. Look at questionably-talented Katy Perry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy_Perry from nowhere she is declared "the next big thing" and completely pushed and orchestrated into the Pop Zone by Big Music. While people who can actually sing, write songs and music and play instruments are left by the way side because they don't have a Big Music deal. HA, I'm reminded of comedian Bill Hicks (deceased) and his take on such talent and their Deal with Satan. 80s music isn't making a comeback. Its popularity to Gen X never went away. It's only that some radio stations are waking up to it, even if they already knew it before hand. Years ago a station in Brisbane ran full page newspaper ads asking what people wanted to hear. The results where... 60s, 70s and 80s and less 90s. So what did the station do? Nothing. It continued playing 90s garbage and lost ratings. It has since - recently - started playing what it was told people wanted to hear a decade earlier and their ratings have increased. Duh! Go to Myspace music and have a listen to Electric Mary, KDC and Cog - all from Australia. Never heard of them, right? But I'd rather listen to them and enjoy their musical skills than have a bout of Marshall Bruce Mathers III crapping on. Mainstream Music is controlled by the big Music Companies. Period. Onward. Maths vs Boys vs Girls. There are two schools in town. One a boys school and the others a girls school. Every year the boys do better at math-related topics and the girls at written topics, yet both are taught the same thing. What is hardwired into us are basic but different survival skills. From a primitive tribe point of view, the men are the hunters the women the gatherers. Today's society has not changed. The same things that hardwired into men to make them efficient hunters are present. The same thing that's hardwired into a women to make sure her Provider and Offspring are fine are still present. To hunt, men needed teamwork. Even if they hated each other they could work together to complete a hunt. And to formulate a plan of attack. Women could not allow deprivation of any supply lest her immediately family was disadvantaged. This is why women bicker and fight over things men scratch their head at - about one getting more Break Time or whatever (in modern times). These hardwired skills are what enable men - on average - to be better at math-related things while woman are better at written-related things. Our brains process information differently. It's why women can't read maps and men won't ask for directions. It's why men can take corners in a car faster than women. Our brains work differently. Coupled with our slightly different body mechanics gives us different inherent abilities mentally and physically. Michael Ross |
Re: What women/men want
Men view overweight women the same way women view unemployed men.
... and for the same reason -- they cannot provide what we are after. But neither side understands where the other side is 'coming from.' That's why John Gray's Mars/Venus books were so popular. They shed some lights on the mysteries of the 'battle of the sexes.' A woman is perfectly capable of setting up a male friend on a blind date with a friend of hers -- while blissfully ignoring that the friend is overweight (she ignores that because -- after all -- it can't make that much difference, can it?) It's not until after the guy meets the blind date that he realizes the woman who set it all up was obviously UNAWARE of the importance of LOOKS to men. Similarly, a guy could set up a blind date for a woman friend of his, and ignore the fact that the man he's recommending is OUT OF WORK (he ignores that because -- after all -- it can't make that much difference, can it?). See? Both sides completely UNAWARE of how the mind of the other side works!! Total ignorance. The radio shock jock Tom Leykis has a saying something like this... "A woman finds the richest man (what M. Ros is calling a man who can 'provide') her charms can attract -- and a man finds the best looking woman he can afford." Very cynical to be sure -- but, at its root there's a lot of truth in it. -- TW |
Re: Men Women Music Maths Oh My
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1. Thanks Michael - for being logical as always. I've actually read a bit on the math discrepancy. And what stands out for me is this: * There are studies done that show that men are better than women at math by a factor of 14 times! * Then there are studies done that show that men are better at math by just a factor of 3 times. * And then there are studies done that show that men and women are equal in math. If what you say is true - that biological evolution has made men better at math than women - then shouldn't the rate at how better they are - be in around the same ball park every time? After all - the rates don't change in strength or speed comparison. So why do they change so drastically for math comparison? 2. When boys and girls are taught in the same class - their math skills come out to be very close to each other. Sometimes the women performing better than the men. So maybe with math at least - its more about the teaching methods and the teachers expectations that is bringing out the discrepancy? 3. Psychology experiments have shown that students do as well as their teachers expect them to do. Quote:
Details at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect 4. So it is my conclusion that men aren't really better than women at math - at least from ability point of view. But they become better because of this expectation that many people have that men are better at math. And because most teachers are biased with this notion too. Given a good teacher - the math discrepancy is never seen. |
Re: What women/men want
Quote:
? I've never argued against persuasion. Modes of persuasion - yes. But have never said that people can't be influenced. Anyways... Quote:
Yes demand can be created. Look at Fedex. No one wanted speedier transportation of good at premium prices before he showed up. In fact - everyone told him its not something they would pay more for. And yet - Fedex worked. Look at Steve Jobs - he always aims at delivering technologies that have no current demand. Who wanted firewire ports instead of USB ports? And a rotor instead of buttons on their mp3 players? There was no demand for such things before Apple went ahead and invented the product and than pitched the product in ways that the demand was created and caught on. |
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