What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Hi,

I thought I'd write a quick "refresher" for everyone on... what are "toll positions?" And also, why should you care?

A "toll position" is phrase often used by Harvey Brody. It specifies protection for a desirable product or service, such that, for a customer to get that product or service, the person has to go through you.

There is no way around it... Unless they go through you (and pay you), they can't get the product or service!

Let me first give an example of what is NOT a toll position.

Let's say you open an arts and crafts store. Is that store a toll position?

Generally, no. It's possible for someone to open an almost-identical store next door.

Let me give an example. I have a friend who had a store selling imported exotic products - things like traditional baskets, rugs, jewelry, etc., from overseas cultures.

His store was quite successful, until...

Another, very similar store, opened up a few doors down from him!

Immediately, his sales went down - because the other store was taking a big fraction of his customers!

My friend decided to really compete... He spent money, lowered prices, and so on, trying to drive the other store out of business.

Unfortunately... They must have had deeper pockets than he did. What happened was that my friend went out of business instead, and sadly, he lost so much money he even had to sell his house.

My friend's store did not have a toll position. Anyone could open a similar store close by, and compete with him. That means that customers who wanted to buy some kind of traditional crafts products didn't have to go through my friend... They could go to the store a few doors down, and buy similar products from his competition.

Now, going again with the example of a store, is there ever a case where a store can have a toll position? The answer is, yes...

Here's one example I know of. At the university I attended as a student, there is a "Sports and Recreation" (S&R) building. That building holds all of the indoor sports and recreation facilities - swimming pool, gym, rooms for aerobics classes, badminton courts, squash courts, indoor basketball courts, etc. It is about a 5 min. walk from the S&R building to the main building that had the cafes in it.

However, there is one cafe in the S&R building, and only one cafe. That cafe has a toll position - because there is no space for another cafe.

When I was there as a student, the people who ran that cafe were quite obnoxious. Nobody liked them. But, they still did well... Because people who participated in activities in the S&R Building had no choice!

If people wanted to eat or drink after doing their sports or exercise, without having a longish walk, they had no choice other than to buy from that cafe!

Unless they renovated the S&R building to fit in space for another cafe, they had (and still have) a kind of local toll position. It is impossible for someone to open a competing cafe close by on campus.

(Or off campus for that matter, because it's also a long walk from the S&R building to get off the university campus!)

Another example?

Walt Disney created the character of Mickey Mouse in 1928. The character became popular, through various cartoons, films, and also merchandise (like Mickey Mouse dolls, caps, clocks, T-shirts, games, apps, etc.). Mickey Mouse is copyrighted and also trademarked by the Disney company.

Because of that, nobody else can legally create any products with Mickey Mouse in or on them in the USA, and also in most other countries. If anyone tried to do this in the USA, for example, Disney would come after them with a lawsuit and take all their profits, and they'd probably also be fined.

In this case, copyrights and trademarks are also forms of toll positions. Toll positions stop people from competing with you. That means if you create something valuable - it's impossible for someone to just copy you, "jump on the bandwagon," and make profits from your idea and your blood, sweat, and tears!

I'll share some more examples of toll positions in the next post...

- Dien

Different types of toll positions...
 

We talked about "toll positions" and retail stores... And how most retail stores do NOT have a toll position. But, in very specific circumstances, it's possible that some do...

We also talked a little bit about copyrights and trademarks as toll positions as well...

What are some other toll positions? Well...

A patent is a toll position. If you have a product which is patented, then nobody can legally sell a product covered by the patent without your permission, while the patent is in force...

A secret formula can be a toll position. For example, take the product WD-40. It is protected by a secret formula. Nobody can make anything exactly like WD-40, without knowing the secret formula! (As you can imagine, they hold on to that secret formula quite tightly...)

By the way, Wired magazine analyzed WD-40, and claims it knows the ingredients! You can read their article here...

http://web.archive.org/web/201401190...st_whatsinside

What they don't tell you is that this may not be enough to duplicate the product. For example, it's like knowing the ingredients to make apple pie, but not having the recipe. What specifically do you do to these ingredients, and in what order? Unless you know that... You might end up with a heap of mush instead of delicious apple pie, even with the same ingredients!

An exclusive distribution agreement can be a toll position. For example, McDonald's will only sell soft drinks made by the Coca Cola company. That's a toll position for Coca Cola - it locks out Pepsi from every single McDonald's restaurant!

How about more "modern" examples? They exist too...

A list of email prospects for a particular type of product can be a toll position. For example, let's say you sell books on how to train boxer dogs. Your email list is a toll position for anyone wanting to reach these specific boxer dog owners!

A great domain name can be a toll position. That's why single word names can sell for thousands or millions of dollars. For example, PrivateJet.com sold for $30.18 million in 2012! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_domain_names

As you can see, there are lots of toll positions... Of course, there's more to it than this - but this is the foundation.

I'm talking to Harvey Brody, and again, we're hoping to bring everyone up to date...

Harvey's doing extremely well, and is very happy, healthy, no stress, etc. He still is doing extremely well, both from his "old" toll positions, and new ones... People know Harvey's "old" story, but very few people know the amazing things he's been doing the last 30 years or so... (Gordon and I are among the few who have been privy to this story...) However... If he feels there's enough interest in this topic, he may be persuaded to share more information with everyone...

If you could ask your toll position-related questions to Harvey, and get him to answer, what kind of questions would you ask?

Best wishes,

Dien

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Hi Diem,
I would like to ask what are some good toll position
opportunities open today, that do not require a big
investment. Are there specific things we should look
at?

Trevor

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

That's the million $ question Trevor.

I've often asked myself that over the years, after first reading about the concept via Gordon and his posts about one Harvey Brody.

I've come to liken it to a unique selling proposition on steroids.

Basically you need to come up with something that enough people want it (to be economically viable) and they can't get it anywhere else.

One way to create a toll position is through positioning... positioning yourself or positioning a product or service your providing through the use of books, articles, speaking engagements and even advertising.

The goal would be to achieve a level of authority or excellence or something of value that no one else is or can provide in the perception of the customer, client or prospect.

Dan Kennedy for instance created a toll position by writing 20-something books.

The thing is in order to build or create a toll position it's either going to take time, money or some sort of resource. Toll positions do not come easily or quickly without some sort of 'skin' in the game.

Don Alm's many advertising concepts are all toll position types of activities. He's out there creating a toll position (and value) by doing something most others refuse, face-to-face selling. That cold calling is his 'skin' in the game.

What type of 'skin' you're looking to invest will determine which direction you should be looking for your own toll position.

But keep in mind no matter what toll position it is, it has to be of recognizable value to enough people to make it economically worth your while– putting up a toll booth on an abandon road gets you nothing.

Dan Kennedy's time...
 

Just want to point out a huge difference between Dan Kennedy (and many like him)...

Harvey works out of a home office. A few hours a day.

Dan is currently flying all over the country, maintaining a heavy hotel schedule, where his every minute of the day is planned out.

Now, he "probably" loves it. For those of you younger ones, at 65, would YOU want (need?) to be flying all over the country living out of hotel rooms, or would you rather be working from home (when you work)

The other difference, Dan HAS to sell books, programs and consulting. If his sales drop, so does his income.

Harvey's machine keeps churning out cash without him having to be selling, and explains his reluctance for getting into a project which requires that. He's seen Dan Kennedy first hand and has said NO thanks to that lifestyle.

Michael, you're right, setting up the right kind of toll booth taakes time and effort, but may be worth it.

As for Don Alm, all of his projects could be easily duplicated by many people, what sort of proprietary position is that?

Gordon

Re: Dan Kennedy's time...
 

Hey Gordon,

You probably haven't kept up with Dan much lately but after 9-11 and he got out of the "Success Tour" racket he was part of for a decade.

Over the last 10 years or so his speaking has dropped to nil outside of the annual Info Summit and Super Conference. About everything he does is done from his home between Akron and Cleveland.

All consultations take place at his home. He does virtually no traveling anymore.

His passion is harness racing and can be found at the track racing one of his many horses on an almost nightly basis.

And as far as selling, again his books have reached the point of mass acceptance and his name is widely recognized by those that may at some point require his services.

At this point Dan does one thing to keep his business afloat and that's create some content on a monthly basis. It may not be the equivalent of designing a widget and then let someone else handle the distribution and sales of the widget once it's been tested and proven, but it's probably the next best thing. And it's probably a more likely scenario for many to cross into rather than being able or gifted enough to find or create a product that is both evergreen and can be managed by someone other than the toll position holder.

Don's projects could be duplicated but very, very few have the gumption to go face-to-face, nose-to-nose and toes-to-toes in order to sell a program like he does. Face-to-face selling has become almost extinct due to a variety of reasons– the result is if Don (or someone like him) puts together a profitable program they'll have virtually no competition because no one wants to put in the work or put up with the rejection that comes with cold calling.

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Thanks Dien, what kind of practical Real Estate investment opportunities does Harvey Brody generally recommend finding as toll positions in todays market?

In the "How to Become Financially & Personally Independent" course he taught the concept of stored value, not about the inflated or false real estate evaluations so commonly prevalent. Plus he avoided debt or mortgage when securing real estate or any other asset as stored value.

Btw, I was not sure if I was allowed to respond to this post.

Re: Dan Kennedy's time...
 

OK, last week he was in LA, then headed to Miami. My opinion is he's working harder now than he ever has. But, if that is your preferred model, have fun.

Same with 68 year old Don Alm hitting the streets like he did at 35.

Whatever glove fits.

Gordon

PS You think Kennedy would be a more likely scenario??? You don't think he is gifted? ANYONE can find products, FEW can do what Dan does.

It is a good question
 

And of course you are allowed to post.

Let's get Harvey's answer on this question, he may have outgrown real estate, I don't know.

Gordon

Re: Different types of toll positions...
 

Dien, would Harvey Brody still recommend using the Thomas Register of American Manufacturers as a lead source for finding & acquiring injection molds as a toll position?

If yes, what specific type of injection mold would Harvey definitely recommend looking for with hidden stored value? Perhaps it would appear obsolete & totally worthless in todays market, but if modified or tweaked it would be a very profitable toll position?

Would either you or Harvey consider giving the steps & procedures step-by-step which should be taken & followed after the injection molds toll position potential has been analyzed or evaluated by either you, Harvey &/or?

Re: Different types of toll positions...
 

Dien, would Harvey Brody still recommend using the Thomas Register of American Manufacturers as a lead source for finding & acquiring injection molds as a toll position?

If yes, what specific type of injection mold would Harvey definitely recommend looking for with hidden stored value? Perhaps it would appear obsolete & totally worthless in todays market, but if modified or tweaked it would be a very profitable toll position?

Would either you or Harvey consider giving the steps & procedures step-by-step which should be taken & followed after the injection molds toll position potential has been analyzed or evaluated by either you, Harvey &/or?

Re: Dan Kennedy's time...
 

Great points as usual Gordon!

Maybe this is where the concept of the "toll booth" becomes a little fragmented.

What I mean by that is maybe we need to consider if it's a toll booth that can command .05 and one that can command $5?

Meaning that some business models are going to be more lucrative with far less work involved than others, but that doesn't mean a toll position that makes a net profit of $20,000 a year and requires a half-dozen hours of work per week is a worthless toll booth. For many folks they would be all over that.

Personally I think the "I'm the expert toll position" is in many cases more easily achieved and is easier to maintain long-term than the "find a product" toll position. In this day and age the ability to knock-off a product is beyond epidemic... which makes the lifespan of products (and a product toll position) shorter and shorter.

And while Dan is both prolific in his ability to churn out content and disciplined about doing it... keep in mind that much of his new content is simply regurgitated from earlier content and he's very good at commenting on someone else's content. I don't fault him for that, it's how I would do it. That doesn't make him gifted. If makes him sharp for knowing what he can get away with while doing as little as possible in the way of brand spanking new content creation.

I've got a toll position product that does reasonable well for me. But it sure wasn't easy nor inexpensive getting it started. In addition you many times need additional funds to achieve market acceptance.

Yeah, you can go the wholesale route but that arena is filled with tiny margins and demanding retailers.

As far as what Don does, once you get an advertising product off the ground, and if it makes sense in the market, reselling existing clients/customers on the idea will become easier over time. Again, is this a $5 toll? No. But for many who would like a toll position and neither have the funds to develop their own products nor the time to become a "I'm the authority" toll position holder, the Don Alm approach is better than a sharp stick to they eye-socket. ;)

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Thank you Gordon, when I spoke with Harvey we were talking about fiat money & the trillions of US Debt created by Government. The point is the housing market value is illusionary because the dollar is worthless inflating the price of housing &/or real estate market.

Yes, Harvey is very astute on everything business & money related.

Re: Different types of toll positions...
 

Boy, I'm definitely not a expert when it comes to injection molds and the whole premise of acquiring obsolete equipment but the way that whole industry moved off shore I would certainly do a lot of research into it. I have to think the initial costs would be large and with the ability of foreign entities to be able to "knock-off" products... it strikes me as being extremely risky.

I have buddies in the model railroad hobby business and they have shared some of the ins and out of creating products with injection molds and how it's still far less expensive to source from overseas.

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

What kind of "digital" toll positions (besides domain names) would he consider building or controlling in coming years?

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Most of info products are not really toll positions. You don't have to buy any of Dan's product to learn about writing successful sales letters or how to create "attention-grabbing" headlines. However, if you want to buy HIS product, he will get a cut (unless it's through a secondary market).

On the other hand, creating a platform where you sell other people's products or perhaps getting exclusive rights to their product(s) would be a toll position.

PS. I really like this thread. Thank you for bringing this subject up.

The "expert" toll position...
 

Thanks Mike... it's true, being the "expert" is also a type of toll position. That's why some consultants can get very highly paid... People feel that those consultants have expertise they need, and which they can't get from a cheaper consultant!

A quick example is Denny Hatch. He's an expert in direct response marketing, including copywriting. He took down his web page with his consulting fees, but you can still see the old version from 2013... At that time, he charged $700 per hour, or $5,000 per day, to consult with you about your business and marketing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130530...tons/fees.html

He can charge $5,000 a day - and get it - because he has a strong "expertise" toll position...

Of course, there are many others who get even more... and they can get it due to their strong toll position as an expert...

I think it depends on your protection. For example, it's extremely easy to "knock off" Mickey Mouse, and print Mickey Mouse T-shirts for example. However, you don't see too many of them around - at least in "Western" countries. The reason why is because Disney will legally defend their "toll position" and quickly put these knock-off artists out of business, and make sure they are heavily fined.

However, you need to have the toll position in the first place in order to do this!

In countries where protection for copyrights and trademarks is weak, it's a different story... But that doesn't mean you can't still make a lot of money, for long periods of time, in the many countries (including the USA) where the "rule of law" is strong...

Thanks Mike!

- Dien

Info-product toll positions...
 

I agree that it does depend on how unique, as well as how desirable, the information is... Perhaps also how strong the "brand" is...

For example, "How To Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie was first published in 1936 - which was 79 years ago... And I believe it's still making money today! (The copyright now seems to be held by Donna Dale Carnegie, who is Dale Carnegie's daughter. She wasn't even born yet when the book was written!)

But on the other hand, there are plenty of books published in 1936 that nobody cares about today... Not every toll position is equal!

One thing about some good toll positions is that - if they know how to work them - the toll positions can keep making money for your kids, and even possibly your grandkids...

Best wishes,

Dien

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Good input Thomas.

Keep in mind a couple things about the info products Dan puts out...

First off he's joked that he wishes that "Ultimate Sales Letter" and "Ultimate Marketing Plan" would go away!

Why?

Because they've "How to's" and not "advocacy" books which represent virtually every other book he's written.

The selling of info products is not DK's prime focus.

His prime focus is to get the $19,000.00 initial consulting fee and then put the wheels in motion for at least a $100,000 copywriting/consulting gig– which many times includes royalties.

For a full understanding of the Dan Kennedy "process" I would suggest his "Influential Writing" workshop that he put on in 2007... I think you would find it to be a real eye-opener!

Keep in mind Dan has talked about "toll position" (and Brody's course) during a couple of his seminars. And he purchased the rights to Dr. Maxwell Maltz's information, which is one way of getting a "toll position"– buy an existing toll position! :D

Re: The "expert" toll position...
 

No question Dien copyright infringement laws (and others) are a great deterrent.

But first you need to have that "toll position" product in order to have something to protect.

Which brings me back to my whole point in all this... I think creating or finding or building a "toll position" is a difficult thing to pull off.

Re: Different types of toll positions...
 

Yes Michael & that is precisely why I would like to have Harvey answer.

What Harvey taught was specific powerful moneymaking concepts w/o the specific step by step details. However w/o expert guidance or experience you could easily waste time on a losing proposition.

Perhaps Dien or Gordon with guidance from Harvey would consider providing a tutorial to the serious-minded who they want to align with in a win-win situation to eliminate any curiosity seekers, time wasters or losers.

A written non-disclosure could be provided if Harvey feels such is needed.

In other words use a system to streamline & make it virtually automatic to qualify & attract winning toll positions. Instead of using this as a gimmick to sell an information product like so many do to 80-90% & more of the people who never take the required action.

Borrow their expertise and ride their coattails
 

The I'm the expert model is great, because the products are proprietary.


So being an AFFILIATE is one way to borrow that expertise and the other, as we've discussed many times, is to be the Certifier for the use of a name. gkic (Kennedy) uses the affiliate way

and Jeffrey Gitomer uses the Certification way.

I agree there is NO across the board definition for a toll booth, copywriters who license their ads have one, like musicians who are paid when the song is used.

Also, most experts like these have products they control, some they create and others they acquire like Kennedy did with Maxwell Maltz.

No right or wrong on any of this stuff other than if it works for you.

Some projects don't need two years to develop, others may take 5, all depends on your goals.

Gordon

PS a good toll measurement is survivor ship.
When Dan goes so do the 100k consulting gigs.
Phil Straw took over for Jim Straw and holds on to the toll position of having control over Jim's decades of products.

So a toll preserves the legacy and continues as the expert takes his personal consulting with him and leaves behind his products,

Re: Dan Kennedy's time...
 

Thanks Gordon and Michael for this awesome conversation.

In my mind, I have 2 definitions.

1. Toll position. A place that you create for yourself in the middle of a lucrative field so that everyone who wants to be a part of the field has to pay you a cut. Dan Kennedy does that with his info products (from what I know, Dave Dee sold more Dan Kennedy products than Dan Kennedy himself - at least that was true a few years back) and consulting (he gets royalty / commission on good performance).

2. The moat. As Warren Buffet says. Create a moat around your product or company so that others can't compete with you.

Dan Kennedy lacks a moat because anyone else can become a marketing guru too. But Sean Ellis has created a moat by coining a new term "growth hacking." He is the first person people will think of as a guru when it comes to growth hacking. Jay Conrad Levinson had done this too with the term Guerilla marketing.

There are various ways to create moats. Patents and trademarks and using legal options (for eg: many restaurants can only either sell Coke or Pepsi products - not both. This is enforced by an exclusivity contract). Keeping price really low so others can't compete (Walmart). Out innovating others. Being the first one to create a platform (Stock exchanges, airbnb.com etc).

I think a lot of Don Alm type ideas are toll positions because no restaurant or hotel will spare adspace for 2 guys. But they may not necessarily be deep moats unless you employ legal contracts to keep things exclusive.

Hmm - lots to think about.

Thanks Ankesh, here's one Toll Booth test.
 

Can the person take a year off, conduct no business and not lose income?

Even 100k a year consultants can't do that.

So, maybe if Don Alm sets his businesses up on an automatic renewal, where they get invoiced and just pay to continue, yes, he has a good toll position. And with all the programs he's done and they simply renew, he has a great toll booth.

This one year off is one way to test a toll booth.

Many in ownership or CONTROL positions of products can easily do this, most gurus or Experts can not.

Gordon

Questions for Mr. Brody
 

I have a few questions I feel everyone interested in toll positions would like to have Mr. Brody answer.

#1 What are some of your most successful ways of finding toll positions

#2 What is the best way to contact manufacturers and inventors?

#3 How do you get past the gate keepers at the companies you want to contact?

#4 I would love some pointers on how to analyze the toll position potential of a product.

#5 What is the best way to get distribution for a product?

and

#6 I feel that Mr. Brody's greatest strength when it comes to toll positions and life is his mindset and I would greatly appreciate having him tell us about that in great detail.

Thank You!!!

Good Questions for Mr. Brody Bob
 

we'll add them to the list.

Gordon

How Does Harvey use the Internet & Todays Technology to Make Money?
 

1. How Does Harvey use the Internet & Todays Technology to Make Money?

2. What recommendations would Harvey Brody definitely recommend for a bootstrapper to become financially & personally independent using the internet & today’s technology?

3. & how is Harvey personally using the internet & today’s technology to acquire toll-positions?

In the early 80’s Harvey Brody spoke about how PCs or personal computers would create fortunes & how he was using them for making a fortune via self-publishing etc.

I don’t believe he would be doing affiliate marketing, using Google AdWords’ (pay per click advertising) or using social marketing such as Facebook, Twitter or even LinkedIn the world’s largest professional network as it represents just pocket change or waste of his time for the amount of time & effort invested.

In fact, I believe he no longer does self-publishing & has moved on to more profitable opportunities requiring less of his time. Whereas todays so called internet marketing gurus believe in selling big ticket information products &/or high-priced information seminars & doing joint-ventures with other marketers to make their fortunes.

This is definitely not Harvey Brody’s style & would never attach his name to such programs or associate with such marketers.

I also don’t believe he would even attempt to make what he calls bread & butter money from either Amazon, Craigslist or Ebay or even recommend such. However he may look for certain valuable watches which are either broken or for cheap to buy & resell, but only as a hobby.

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

How Does Harvey Get Master Distributors to Distribute an Unknown Product w/o Advertising?

This question ties in with Bob Blaggs

Question: 5 What is the best way to get distribution for a product?

Harvey recommends getting master distributors to distribute your product via the major chain stores.

However according to Joe McVoy & Ken Hakuta you won’t get your product accepted by any master distributor unless it’s supported by national advertising or PR via the major TV Networks or National Newspapers.
The reason why because it’s not a proven & tested product for generating sales.

In fact, Joseph Cossman used PR to get his product exposed & accepted & likewise for Ken Hakuta to launch his Fads.

So how Does Harvey Get Master Distributors to accept & distribute an Unknown Product w/o any Advertising? & How does he overcome the objection of an unknown product w/o any advertising or PR support?

Re: Thanks Ankesh, here's one Toll Booth test.
 

I don't know if a zero-hour workweek is an applicable test...

Just because many that sell just another me-too product can set up there business so that it takes no hands-on labor in order to keep it going...

Retailer A submits and order and Off-shore VA sends an email to Off-shore manufacturer B who ships the order directly to Retailer A.

To me a "Toll Position" is one ultimately where the customer has to go through me in one manor or another in order to get the product or service they desire... They can not get it from anyone else... I may be the wholesaler in that instance, and the customer is getting it from a retailer who gets it from me, but they still have to go through my "toll" in order to get the product.

Now if you want to combine that POV with the zero-hour workweek that's A-OK.

Me personally, I like to work and wouldn't know what to do with myself if I were not spending a chuck of my week working on by business hobbies. :)

Re: Dan Kennedy's time...
 

Hey Ankesh!

Good point about the moat.

In one instance Dan does have a "moat" IF they person is so convinced that only Dan Kennedy can help them, then there is a "moat" present.

And really that's the magic of the Dan Kennedy system.

In his program "Never Be Out of Work", he gave the time frames involved from the first time a client entered his funnel (think either one of his books or the "No BS Newsletter") to the time they scheduled the $19,000 per day consultancy and the length of time is very large. We're talking many months on average. And over that time the client becomes more and more convinced that DK IS the answer to their marketing problems so you have both a "toll position" and a "moat".

The other "moat" that DK has is that he's an offline guru... anymore those folks are few in number and growing smaller.

Re: How Does Harvey use the Internet & Todays Technology to Make Money?
 

Well the reason he quit publishing was EMPLOYEES. He's not opposed to publishing and the Internet affords a world wide audience, millions could be building their own harbors with his methodology. Keep in mind many of these guys including Dan Kennedy (a local favorite) learned from Harvey and the gurus of their day.

The problem is scale, and having the right methods in place. His "style" is to operate on a global scale but he would work with "such marketers".

His thinking is a tad bit bigger.

Gordon

A tutorial is a great idea...tell us how.
 

We're all ears if you have a solution.

What would that "system" look like? And how "automatic"?

Would the tutorial be the means to "qualify"? NDA's are a given in any business dealing with ideas.

So, if you have the idea for this system, describe how it works.

Gordon

Thank you all for your feedback!
 

Thank you all for your feedback!

It's been a great discussion...!

Toll positions are very powerful... And the reality is that, here so far, we have only just scratched the surface of what's possible...

I expect to post more on this and related topics in the near future...

Best wishes,

Dien

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this...! Fascinating!

So (to make it clear) - his books are the "front end"... The consulting, copywriting, and possible associated royalties are the "back end"... and where he makes the "real money"...

As for Maxwell Maltz, yes, I think Dan Kennedy and a bunch of others (I think Jeff Paul was also involved) did buy the copyright to Maxwell Maltz's "Psycho-Cybernetics"... I think they even put out a new edition - "The New Psycho-Cybernetics."

Of course, that's only one toll position product. I don't know what they paid, but if they got a good deal, they would have gotten many times their money back, and I'm sure they're still making money from it now. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting many toll positions... There's no reason to stop at just one.

The problem I see with consulting is that you get paid... and that's it. In most cases, you have no further "ownership" of your work. (Copywriting at the "high end," where you can also get paid royalties for sales, may be a little bit different from other types of consulting regarding this - but only as long as they keep running your ad... Plus, it's not like you can provide the same ad to a different client if the first client tires of it.)

With a "product-based" toll position, you can potentially get paid for a longer period into the future... The other thing is, when you "own" the toll position, there are also other things you can do with that. For example, if you owned "Psycho-Cybernetics," you could put out an audio version (they've done that already), make a movie out of it, or a documentary, or have it included as part of a larger collection of similar works (with books or articles owned by others), create a version for teenagers, you could license out excerpts of it to be reprinted in promotional materials, turn the book into a paid seminar tour, have a "Psycho-Cybernetics" coaching program (where others do the coaching under your license), if you have a list of customers, there are further things you can do with that list, create collaborative works, e.g. a Rich Dad / Psycho-Cybernetics product, or a Donald Trump / Psycho-Cybernetics product, etc. For all these other ideas, you can get others to do the work, because you own the valuable "toll position" - so they can't bypass you.

Best wishes,

Dien

Re: The "expert" toll position...
 

Hi Mike,

I think different "toll positions" (obviously) have different values... For example, owning the copyright to "Psycho-Cybernetics" or "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" is probably more valuable than owning the copyright to a book all about an obscure Australian radio play that ran in the 1930s/1940s. (A friend of a friend co-wrote the book I'm talking about - and he and the other author really struggled to sell copies, because it's about such an obscure interest!)

However, valuable toll positions can be bought, or you can do a deal. I recently purchased a set of audiobooks (in a non-business niche), produced by an expert in that niche, in which I'll own the copyright outright. The author put a lot of time and effort into it, and spent more money than I paid for it (and that doesn't even count the hundreds if not thousands of hours of his time), and it's a good product... it even got good reviews in established magazines in that niche. However, it's with these kinds of products where having some sales/marketing skills can really help... There are many people out there who create "toll positions" with great potential, who can't market them. If you can't or don't want to buy them outright, many of them would be open to a profit sharing type of deal. If you do this, just make sure you get the agreement written on paper (that contract will be your toll position!).

Best wishes,

Dien

Re: What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)
 

Hey Dien,

No question a consulting toll position is a different animal from a product toll position.

Different strokes for different folks kind of things. Some prefer sitting on the couch eating Cheetos while their product or products sell without their involvement.

Yes in the consulting toll position it's a swop time for money thing, but there's a certain amount of "Hey I'm a celebrity (in my niche)" kind of thing and some like that.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go.

I'd rather see folks just get out and try to find their own toll position in whichever area appeals to them... but I'm probably getting way ahead of myself.

Quite honestly I think getting or earning a toll position is pretty hard. It's most likely not going to happen without a lot of time and other resources invested– at least for a "big potatoes" toll position.

Re: The "expert" toll position...
 

Here's another example I talked about recently... This is a deal which didn't work out - even though I did get a toll position...

http://www.sowpub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35452

What I didn't mention in the earlier post was that I had a deal with the inventor (who owns the patent in multiple countries) for a percentage of the gross sales, if we got it to marketability. I would spend zero dollars of my own money.

It didn't work out because, although he wanted my advice, he insisted on doing the exact same thing he was doing before, which wasn't working. I pointed out why it didn't work before (and by implication, why it wouldn't work again), but he was very insistent on doing it the exact same way. I suppose he wanted me to perform some "magic" to make it work this time, when the exact same approach before had failed (and failed for very logical reasons).

I explained it in more detail in my earlier post...

After about a month, I said I'm no longer interested, as I realized I was wasting my time. (I've kept tabs on how things are going, and 3 years later, he's still stuck where he was before. He tried a Kickstarter campaign, which failed dismally - he got pledges for less than 3% of the money he was asking for. This is not a product which would lend itself well to a Kickstarter campaign, in my opinion. It's a good product, I think, but most of the people who would buy this product are generally not internet-savvy, and would never have heard of Kickstarter...)

What this shows, though, is the principle... You can get "toll positions" with zero money spent. But yes, there is some work involved in doing it this way... However, lack of money is not really an obstacle to getting toll positions.

Best wishes,

Dien

Toll positions and moats... thanks Ankesh!
 

Hi Ankesh,

Thanks for this... I'll have to ponder this...

I do think there is a relationship between "toll positions" and what economists call "barriers to entry"...

I agree with your point here...

That was partly my point in an earlier post, see the P.S. here...

http://www.sowpub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35260

How easy it is to set up such a multi-year contract, I don't know... Without a contract, I don't see what's stopping someone from coming in and giving the restaurant or hotel a "better deal"...

Of course, the likelihood of that happening may be small. It might also depend where you are - the likelihood is probably smaller in a small town than in a big city...

Best wishes,

Dien