Michael,

Again, I want to say I appreciate your honest opinion. One of my favorite sayings is "How often is constuctive criticism really welcome or well accepted?" I dare say, not too often. Most of the time people are in denial, close-minded, or get real defensive. I, like most, have been known to exibit any one of these. I do try to have an open mind and would be a real fool to reject wise council. I realize now, that asking about or posting the link to my new isp was a mistake and totally gave the wrong impression, not to mention cheating myself out of alot of good advice which was the only reason for my post.
At the risk of sounding like a defensive one, I would like to address each of your comments. Not to defend, but to clarify so you will know from whence I speak and possibly will be so kind as to subject me to more of your character-building wisdom.
I'm fairly new to these forums,(duh!-3months). Has anyone published a newbies guide to forum eticate, so we don't make complete fools of ourselves?

OK, Please allow me to clarify, as I absolutely despise mis-understandings.

> Sure. But you may not like what you hear.

Maybe not, but I'm not too foolish to listen & learn.

> Dave:

> You are about to embark on the same
> "mistake" countless others make...

> Trying to use FREE third party hosting and
> FREE everything else, to SELL a BizOp.

> You admit you have a lack of funds and are
> selling a BizOP at the same time.

> What's wrong with that picture?

> Hello?

> I can't hear you.

OK, so I gave the total wrong impression here. The simple truth is: the last two isp's I had were less than adequate for about $20US. I signed up mostly for the actual service, much more so than the biz-op. Just the isp would have only been $13US, but for the same as I was paying for lame service, I could get the whole package. I really wasn't after the free hosting, website, biz-op; I just figured why not try it out 'cause I'm spending the 20 anyway.
Before, I spend any $ on anything anymore, I try and research them on several good boards. This was no exception, as I don't want yet another lame isp, and the last thing I want to be associated with is another mlm scam. The results of my board search was a little puzzling, can't say I quite understand it yet. This isp company/biz-op was distinctly absent from most forums! I'd still like to know why. Maybe the word just hadn't gotten out yet, or what? If it was a scam or bad service, you'd think there would be negative feedback out there somewhere.
I did find it on one of the biggest marketing boards, and again, nothing negative. On the contrary, the Admin and a lot of his associates appear to have jumped on it.
(It just occurred to me that this probably sounds like I'm "pitching" this! How do I tell you about what I found out and how I got where I'm at without sounding that way?)
So because I needed a new isp, got more for the same money, and found no bad news, I signed up.
It's still new to me and just because I have an affiliate site does not mean I don't welcome opinions on this company. Again, I wanted the service. Free hosting, site, biz-op were just a bonus I thought it wouldn't hurt to try out. I did not realize it would kill all credibility of my posts, because I see very few with no link. Was I really a jerk to think that maybe someone would want a good isp for $13 when AOL (lame?) is twice that? Do I really have to post with no link to get answers? Should I discount all your good posts, (and many other's), because you are "selling" Great Ideas at the bottom of your posts? I think not. OK, so there is a fine line here, what are the guidelines? No blatent ads. Anything else?
Again, I'm not "selling", just trying to clarify so you can give me your opinion from a more accurate perspective.

> Do you really want help or are you just
> trying to acquire names?

Sorry this was mis-interpeted as well. I know that the best places to hide can be right out in the open, but I'm not so stupid to post that just to get names. I meant that until my sites on organic farming/gardening and healthy lifesyle info/recipes are up and running, since it is Spring (up here), that anyone wanting advice would be welcome to contact me for free help. Yes, I would end up with their email, but honestly, I did not even think of that when I wrote it. It was just an offer for free advice and to get aquainted with folks of like interest. (Hindsight: would giving your email out for journeyman level consultation be so bad?) Not a bad idea, but not my intent. I also didn't intend to lump the isp into that offer, but neglected to specify that.
Bottom line to answer your question: I really do want help, and I really do want to help others with my areas of expertise. Just a way for them to get it before my sites are online. And the help is needed to get them online.
(I thought it was rude or "spammish" to email directly to someone from a board, if they did not OK or invite it. Is this correct?)

> Nope. Haven't checked them out. And neither
> will I. Reason? Because I don't believe you
> really want an opinion. How do I know?
> Because the link you are asking us to check
> out is YOUR affiliate link. In other
> words... you are asking our opinion about a
> company which you have already joined.
> Hence, we don't believe your question is
> sincere. Thus, no one answers because they
> reckon you're just posting to get a link in
> to your MLM BizOp thing - this is an old old
> trick and most of the people here (the one's
> who could give you advice anyway) have been
> around too long to fall for such
> "trickery."

Very sorry this came across as "trickery". I see posts quite often that offer no real solid advice or ask a brief, generic question, and even a newbie can see the excuse to post thier link. I know countless ones must get deleted, but lots do get posted. I hope my reply above cleared most of this up.
Of course it's my affiliate link, I don't see anyone else posting someone else's or the corp. without thier's. Does that mean I absolutely can't get anyone's opinion? If it really is a good deal and I left my affiliate off, I could miss some sales. No one can be forced to sign up and I don't get any benefits from browsers so what is the harm? (other than appearing to stoop to trickery and ruining my credibility, both of which I would like to avoid). If you looked and didn't sign-up, what did I benefit other than the chance to have your veteran opinion (I would rather have that anyway). If it happened to be something worthwhile that you hadn't heard about yet, am I a jerk for telling you about it? So I already joined, I still wanted your opinion. IMHO (not worth much in this department as a newbie), the corp site is not bad, but it is a far contrast to the marketing copy I see written by all you veteran marketers out there.

The SOUL PURPOSE of my post was to ask about making my own "mini-site"/gateway page/portal page (I haven't learned all the terminology yet) that would introduce and sell or pre-sell, hook, whatever before they are forwarded on to the isp site. And how to set up the first small mini site for the organics & health subjects. I thought something with some great copy, testimonials, offer for a freebie or two, newsletter offer, notices of my other sites or products, would be the way to get started. Isn't this what I see all you master marketers doing? Maybe I'm wrong here, but the isp site just doesn't ring with killer copy. Now that I think about it, they probably avoided hypey-killer copy to sound more professional & business-like. Where do you draw the line between hype copy that sells and sounding like a pitch-man?
I also wanted a small, quick site to offer newsletter sign-ups for the organic farm and health sites, so that I had something to offer and start building interest until I get enough content for the main sites.
AND, how to do this on a very limited budget?

> You want advice?

Yes, definitely, and I really can't tell you how much I appreciated your valuable time and opinions. Not just Michael, but everyone out there. I've always told my son: you can learn something from everyone, some good some bad, the challenge is how much value to put on each source. So thank you all for your advice, sorry I came across wrong and missed out on a lot of it.

> Okay...

> Stop pushing a BizOp while you're on the
> financial ropes.

Didn't mean to come across as pushing the biz-op.
It was my first online attempt at writing a catchy little phrase to get people to click. It was kind of exciting to have something to put at the bottom, just wanted to get my feet wet. Had no idea that it would create such a backfire.
How much difference would it have made if I hadn't been asking about starting on a very low budget?

> Instead, concentrate on getting customers
> for your "real" product.

Biz-op aside, it is offering a real quality isp service for half what AOL users are paying for lame service plastered with ads. All those people leaving AOL & MSN need a decent isp. I would rather and will soon be offering things in my areas of expertise. I didn't know this was a terrible thing to put up in the meantime, or that it would mean I couldn't get answers to questions about how to get the main subjects online quickly and on a tight budget.

> Concentrate on getting just one single
> customer. Then, after you get that one,
> concentrate on getting just one other
> customer. After your second customer,
> concentrate on getting just one more
> customer. Little steps. One customer at a
> time. Not by selling an
> "opportunity" but by selling an
> actual product. See?

I guess the link should have "sold" the isp service instead of sounding like it was just pushing a biz-op. However, if you went there, either on is available without all the usual mlm hype or the hidden until you sign-up load of ****.
Yes, I will be selling our real product of our years of knowledge in the above mentioned fields asap. Hopefully with your help.

> There has been much discussion here about
> MLM and the fact people are selling the
> "opportunity" instead of the
> "product," and why that is
> backwards.

I know that's bass-ackwards and when I tell friends or contacts about it, I present it as a good isp with the biz-op as a fringe benefit if they want it.

> So you want a few extra bucks?

Yes, not to sound greedy, but more than a few. I know there's no get rich quick, and don't mind lots of hard work (farmers and loggers know all about that). I am tired of working my tail off to make someone else rich. After years of self-employment in an economically depressed area, I spent the last couple of years selling my life, soul, and every bit of me I had to offer to an organic frozen food corp contracting and supervising several thousand acres of organic vegetables across the US and Canada. All the employees worked long, hard, and cheap to help get this small, family company with a great plan off and running to a national and global level. Last fall they eliminated my position with no notice or reason given. Said I had done well, no misconduct or anything. "See you later, hope we can still be friends." Five months later I'm still trying to negotiate a severance agreement.
It made me realize how the good folks at Enron, or the local sawmill must feel. I loved all the great people I met, but do not want to put my family and I in a position to rely on someone else like that again. We need to share the knowledge God gave us and build a more self reliant income. I know it takes time to build a biz and plan to do whatever real world sweat jobs I have to to survive, but I know the internet is the great information market. It also gives more freedom to pick where you live, instead of having to live where your employer is.
Sorry to go off subject, thought a little background would help you target your advice.

> Besides ACTING on the ideas presented in The
> Great Ideas Letter (like the recent one
> where you could actually start and market
> the biz for a whole month for under $100),
> why not put a little Vegetarian CookBook
> together and sell it on consignment in
> health food stores? You could call it 101
> Great Tasting Vegetarian Recipes You Can
> Make In Less Than 10 Minutes .

Yes, thankyou for Great Ideas. Very well earned title.
We are working on a cookbook. The health food stores would be a great outlet. Thanks. I also want to get it online as fast as possible. I noticed that health is usually in the top five search subjects. Also that there are way, way, too many hucksters pushing various supplements as the key to health, most some form of mlm. What is the best way not to get lost in the multitudes?

> Cookbooks are always selling well because
> people are always buying them. Proven
> market. Proven product. Can't get no better
> than that.

> Would it work?

> TEST it and find out. You might be
> pleasantly surprised.

I agree, we're working on it, hence my questions about getting online on a budget. Sorry my new isp has a biz-op with it and that it clouded the issues I really needed advice for.

I hope this clarifies from whence I come. Sorry for the mis-understanding. Sorry this is so long, but I didn't know how else to give you an acurate account of the situation.
If you or anyone else now feels better about taking the time to respond, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I'm still glad to advise anyone interested in organics or natural vegan health.

Thanks everyone, Dave

> Michael Ross