That's exactly what I wanted!

A few messages down below (There are no secret marketing formulas) we were talking about marketing/writing techniques.

Dien, you asked for more on the Desire part of the AIDA formula that just about every successful marketer including myself (no I'm not being bigheaded, but thanks to AIDA, I've had some success:0) has used.

Anyway the desire part is really the most important part of the whole AIDA concept and in fact it's the most important part of any marketing.

Here's why........

For any kind of marketing to work, whether it's AIDA or anything else you use, there has to be some level of built in 'want'. Your prospect must actually want what you're selling to some degree.

Makes sense right??

Well it never ceases to amaze me how many people fall in love with a product, spend valuable time and money, only to discover that no one wants the product.

I had a group of people once who all had project and product ideas. While some were bound to succeed, there were many (around 70%) who's projects were destinded to be extremely difficult of just plain hard work.

And everyone of them was because the market just wasn't there. It was hard to imagine anyone wanting or desiring what they had in mind. There was no obvious market are everyone of them had already selected or thought up the product first.

I'm going off the trail here, so let's get back on it.

The number one rule of successful selling (in my mind at least) is that you must have a market who actually wants what you're thinking of selling.

Don't find a product first, although it's not wrong to do so, but when you find the product first, you tend to fall in love with it and then get blindsided by it's attraction which doesn't always equate to popularity.

Find a market first, they're all around you everyday. This board shows an obvious one that has included many best selling books and programs.

In fact I've found my last two projects at public discussion boards and they were quite successful.

Also when you're looking for targets to market to, usually stay within you're interests. If you like pink hats (no I don't) then see if there are any other people who like wearing pink hats. No we're not looking for a product to sell (colored hats) we're looking for a market of people who like wearing pink hats where we may be able to develop another product or package for.

You can search for markets within your own interests, but don't find products in your interests and then try to find markets, it's too easy to fall in love with the product.

This may sound a little confusing, but you just need to keep it simple.....

Market-Product-Marketing(AIDA). Get all three right and you'll have a winner on your hands.

Before I use MPM, I always go through the Income-CustomerNumber-Price to establish how much I want to make from my project, but I've droned on for long enough here, I'll save it for another day if we get talking about marketing again.

Just remember, when you use the AIDA formula, you've already found a market that has a certain hunger for what you're offering, therefore it has built in desire. Using the Desire part of AIDA is where you build on that established want.

HTH

Richard.

PS I put this up top because I thought desire is such an intrical part of all selling that I'd make sure you all read it. Of course if I've crossed the line, please move or delete this message.

> Anyway the desire part is really the most
> important part of the whole AIDA concept and
> in fact it's the most important part of any
> marketing.

> Here's why........

> For any kind of marketing to work, whether
> it's AIDA or anything else you use, there
> has to be some level of built in 'want'.
> Your prospect must actually want what you're
> selling to some degree.

> Makes sense right??

Yes this make sense and I totally agree, however,

I started my selling career at 7 or 8 selling flowers door-to-door.

Now, I've written about my "mentor" who probably taught me as much about selling as anyone...and how he gave me books to read on selling.

The problem I had (or one of them) was this:

the flowers I was selling, I had picked for FREE in a field behind most of the houses I was selling to.

It was an old nursery that had been abandon and gone to seed, I drove Dien by it looking for the lone sentinel that still pops up every Spring and serves as a reminder to what once was, it is a daffodil.

So, how do you sell something people can get for free if they WANTED them?

The first book I read at 8 was Elmer Wheeler's "Tested Sentences". the second was Elmer Leterman's "The SALE begins when the customer says NO."

But I was able to sell FLOWERS to people who really didn't WANT them, or else they would have gone into the field and picked the flowers themselves.

But maybe I was just too darn cute to resist?

Maybe, a couple of years ago I took a part-time Summer job selling FROZEN meat off the back of a Pick-up truck.

Ever have one of THOSE guys knock on your door?

HELLO, that was me. And I did it to test myself, my selling skills, to see if I still could walk the talk, because I try to encouarge everyone to take at least one selling job in their lives.

Preferably door-to-door. The list is fairly impressive of people who have done this.

NOW, door to door is hardly TARGETED marketing, and you rarely encounter people who WANT what you are selling.

So here is where I disagree with the concept somewhat.

It is my job as a marketer to MAKE them want it.

Because maybe they didn't know it even existed before I showed up. I met men who make six figure incomes selling frozen steaks from the back of a pick-up truck. Who in their right mind would WANT this? Or even BUY this?

That is what I thought as I started to sell it. First thing I did was to buy a case myself. Then I had a party, and cooked the meat in the box.

First day on the job I sold 3 cases within the first hour. To complete strangers. NONE of whom wanted what I had to sell.

At 259 bucks a pop. That was over 750 dollars in sales in the first hour, I learned HOW some of these guys could make 60 and 70 thousand dollars a year.

I didn't believe it at first. But after a few days on the job, I could see how easy it could be FOR THE RIGHT KIND OF PERSON.

In between the flowers of my youth and the Pick-up Steak experiment...I have sold a lot of stuff...door-to-door when I needed some really quick bucks.

Stuff that no ONE wanted per se. Like the DEFENDER OF WOMEN, or the Victory Miracle Polishing Cloth...a couple of my bread and butter winners.

Or when I sold businesses on Action Ads, which were clocks placed in pizza shops and dry cleaners, and the ads would rotate in a neon lighted frame.

Or TVs, VCRs, Stereo Equipment...although this is a different type of selling because they come to you in a retail environment...but DAK and Comstrad, and JS&A did OK selling stuff people WANTED after they were sold on it.

NOT told about it, but carefully crafted SALES attempts to get you to WANT it.

> Well it never ceases to amaze me how many
> people fall in love with a product, spend
> valuable time and money, only to discover
> that no one wants the product.

NOW this I agreee with, and as I've written about below, I too have done this. I think my SQUARE ONE WORKSHOPS might fall into this category. But I don't know yet. I havent' really tried to SELL it either.

> And everyone of them was because the market
> just wasn't there. It was hard to imagine
> anyone wanting or desiring what they had in
> mind.

I agree here too, but experience has taught me that MARKETS can be created. The INNOVATOR takes the risks, then the rest of the group follows safely on tested and proven methodology...

for example, Ben Suarez used the COMIC section, and ran full page ads, it was unheard of at the time, there was no MARKET there.

But, he built a huge winner from those ads, and his company keeps chugging away to the tune of 125+ million dollars a year.

Was there a MARKET for the Heraldry Name idea that Gary Halbert came up with?

The "Nancy" Letter is one of the greatest pieces of salesmanship in print ever created. There was NO market with money burning a hole in it's pocket, just waiting for Sir Gary to ride in and take it.

The MARKET was created. By the product. And more importantly by the SALESMANSHIP.

Innovators almost always inroduce product before market. Steven Jobs had a market for the PC?

There was no obvious market are
> everyone of them had already selected or
> thought up the product first.

Which is my point and opinion, it is OK to do that as long as you know that innovation is the harder road, the least likely to succeed, the one that requires the most work, BUT, may also have the greater payoff.

In sales, the RISK/REWARD idea as shown on the Pictogrigm of Finances holds true, just as it does in investment worlds.

> I'm going off the trail here, so let's get
> back on it.

> The number one rule of successful selling
> (in my mind at least) is that you must have
> a market who actually wants what you're
> thinking of selling.

And here is where I agree, for the beginner, or for the marketer who wants a "sure thing", or as close as possible as you can get to one.

Don't get me wrong, I've said the same thing for a dozen years. MARKET FIRST, product second.

But, I've seen the exceptions. In 1985 WHO wanted a VCR? Product came first, then it was up to people like me to SELL them.

Same with the CD player when it first arrived? Who would buy that, although you could argure there is always a MARKET for music...so I'd have to conceed that point.

> Don't find a product first, although it's
> not wrong to do so, but when you find the
> product first, you tend to fall in love with
> it and then get blindsided by it's
> attraction which doesn't always equate to
> popularity.

Now here is an AMEN to that statement. I agree.

> Find a market first, they're all around you
> everyday. This board shows an obvious one
> that has included many best selling books
> and programs.

The PROBLEM that very few talk about is the COMPETITION for a market. Take the whole biz-op/money making market. Going to go away?

Hardly. But is it harder to compete in? Jim Straw, a man who has sold MILLIONS of dollars of stuff via mailorder addressed this on another forum recently, saying that there is a LOT more choices for people, and that thins the stew for the market.

Here's a market...Internet Marketing...

How many books and courses and web sites are dedicated to this MARKET (1/2 the net, right? HA!)

But a person can only read so much, learn so much, spend so much money that it would be in my opinion a harder market to CONTINUOUSLY pump the money from.

And marketers like to and should go to the well that gives them water.

But at some point the MARKET gets too thin or saturated...until an INNOVATOR comes up with a different way to market.

> In fact I've found my last two projects at
> public discussion boards and they were quite
> successful.

There is not a day that goes by that at least ONE good idea shows up at a forum. FREE for anyone who wants to run with it. But that is also part of the problem, getting people to DO.

> Also when you're looking for targets to
> market to, usually stay within you're
> interests.

Again, I agree, but also DISAGREE. I may not know BEANS about astrology, but if I know there is a hungry market in this case and I have access to a person/company with products of interest, here is where the JV comes in handy. Most people don't regard a JV as a marketing effort, but it most definitely is.

If you like pink hats (no I
> don't) then see if there are any other
> people who like wearing pink hats. No we're
> not looking for a product to sell (colored
> hats) we're looking for a market of people
> who like wearing pink hats where we may be
> able to develop another product or package
> for.

But, if you are an INNOVATOR, you create a PINK hat, get Madonna in days gone by or today Brittany Spears to wear a pink hat in her next video...and write a hit song about how cool pink hats are...you CREATE THE MARKET...

Sound FAR OUT?

Well, I guess I could throw out Gary Dahl and the PET ROCK for an example...any MARKET there?

Totally created for the product. Yes there was a gift market. Yes there was an "unusual gift" market (and as an aside, take note, Spencer Gifts is making a comeback, do you have a crazy gift idea?)

> You can search for markets within your own
> interests, but don't find products in your
> interests and then try to find markets, it's
> too easy to fall in love with the product.

AMEN again. Don't fall in love, test test test.
But you can use other people's INTERESTS same as you can use their talent, their money or their time. Fall in love with what you are doing.

Within the DOING, a part of that might be marketing, might be product development, might be innovation, might be acquistion of a cash cow.

Just love the day and the processes of the day.

> This may sound a little confusing, but you
> just need to keep it simple.....

> Market-Product-Marketing(AIDA). Get all
> three right and you'll have a winner on your
> hands.

The PROBLEM Richard is it is NOT simple. It is NOT something everyone can do. Finding a MARKET takes incredibly hard work. Finding and testing a product is arduous. Marketing is hardly as simple as AIDA. Although that plays an important part in one of the sales processes that take place.

The reason there are so many SCAM sites, and the reason so many people start and quit businesses every year is because it is NOT simple or easy.

It is hard dang work.

> Before I use MPM, I always go through the
> Income-CustomerNumber-Price to establish how
> much I want to make from my project,

This is an excellent way to do it. But it is only one way. And you are an experienced marketer with a lot of success. My thing is this: skills of success are not easily transferrable or even easily acquired. MOST people who attempt to just use the AIDA formula come in too far up the line, before they know WHY they are even doing what they are doing.

MOST people are not cut out to do the AIDA formula either in person or by REMOTE MEANS. It is my opinion that these are skills that can be hired out, and free the Entrepreneur to do other things.

Case in point, Rick Smith, the Net Guerrilla, once he let the PROS do his graphic, it was a catalyst to help him FOCUS in on what he does best. So, as simple as a graphic might be for some people, if it is not the right one, then the AIDA formula falls apart at the outset, because you may have captured attention, but for the wrong reasons.

but
> I've droned on for long enough here, I'll
> save it for another day if we get talking
> about marketing again.

NO you can never DRONE on long enough here, we like DRONING, my picture is next to it in the dictionary.

I appreciate your sharing your expertise with us, you have done some remarkable things, I for one am dying to know some of those inside secrets, but alas, I don't have the time to do it. Nor the want. You are going to have sell me.

> Just remember, when you use the AIDA
> formula, you've already found a market that
> has a certain hunger for what you're
> offering, therefore it has built in desire.
> Using the Desire part of AIDA is where you
> build on that established want.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT, except where I might have disagreed above. OK?

Gordon Alexander

Hi Gordon and Richard,

> I started my selling career at 7 or 8
> selling flowers door-to-door.

Gordon, do you think being more "child-like" in some ways could help with becoming a better salesperson?

I've read here and there that children seem to be "natural" sales people. They sell you on taking care of them, getting them the toy they wanted, and so on.... (I think Napoleon Hill may mention this somewhere....)

And when I think about it, I *did* have some sales experience as a child. Okay, I used to make drawings and sell them to my Mom for about 10c each (she'd then stick them on the fridge), but I WASN'T thinking of that.... :)

I went on from there. We used to have these little stencil devices, where you would trace through the lines in a piece of plastic. You'd have about 2 or 3 pieces of plastic, with lines you could trace through with a pen. You'd trace through one, then replace it with another piece of plastic and trace through that. In the end, the lines would match up to make a great picture of a race car.

(I don't remember what this toy was called, but I thought it was cool....)

Anyway, when I was around maybe 6 or 7 years old, I used to make these drawings of various cool race cars, and take them to school. There, I managed to sell a few of these drawings to my fellow primary school students. How's that for an early start for a budding entrepreneur? :)

Somehow, as the years went by, my "sales" skill got drummed out of me somehow.... But thinking back, and remembering what it was like to be a kid, I think I can find it once more....

I just thought I'd share that interesting story (well, I found it interesting :)

Do you think a "child-like" approach helps in sales?

Cheers,

Dien

Dien - I experienced first hand the selling abilities of kids this weekend. I was in Dallas in an unfamiliar neighborhood, when I rounded the corner and was literally waved down by two cute little girls selling lemonade.

Forget about not talking to strangers - they utterly convinced me I needed a glass in the 100 degree heat and that the price was cheap. How?

By their sincerity, fearlessness and (of course)the fact that they were 10 years old and entrepreneurs! I bought two glasses and gave them a tip to encourage them on their venture. Both their words and looks conveyed geniune pride and appreciation.

Maybe we do need to step back from our sophisticated selling methods, believe in our products/services absolutely, sincerely believe that all prospects need/want our products, and be appreciative of all sales.

Anyway, from the sales techniques of babes!

Regards, Bob

Gordon,

We're all different and not everything that works, works for everyone. There are no guarantees in marketing, but I've found that from my experience MPM(AIDA) is the simplest and easiest of all the marketing formulas I've ever seen.

If you don't mind, I'd like to reply to some of the points you made.

Here you're talking about selling meat and flowers door to door......

NOW, door to door is hardly TARGETED
> marketing, and you rarely encounter people
> who WANT what you are selling.

I'd have to disagree with that, because it's targeted in a sense that certain products will do very well with humans in general. Products like meat (hunger) and flowers (feeling good) are easy to sell to the target market who are....the general population.

Being human, we all like to eat and like to give and receive, basic human traits, so I consider that if you selected humans in general as a target market, then the products I'd consider would be things that satisfy them, food and flowers being good examples.

> It is my job as a marketer to MAKE them want
> it.

While I agree that to some degree, we marketers must sell the sizzle and not the steak so much, we'll have a better response rate if we target meat eaters and not vegetarians. Hence selecting a market that loves eating meat, will always get a better response than selecting a mixed group of people.

> I agree here too, but experience has taught
> me that MARKETS can be created. The
> INNOVATOR takes the risks, then the rest of
> the group follows safely on tested and
> proven methodology...

Yes, I agree if you can come up with the next pet rock or pokemon or whatever will be hot, you will be fabulously wealthy. But personally I'd rather be the guy who jumps in as the wave is approaching and not the person who actually starts the wave. Starting waves (usually) requires large amounts of money and time.

>The MARKET was created. By the product. And
> more importantly by the SALESMANSHIP.

Very true, but I still believe it's easier to copy success than to invent it, especially if your on a time and money budget.

> Which is my point and opinion, it is OK to
> do that as long as you know that innovation
> is the harder road, the least likely to
> succeed, the one that requires the most
> work, BUT, may also have the greater payoff.

Exactly, I'd love to be the guy to come up with the next big thing, but you'll always have a better chance making money from existing markets. I rather create an add on product for pokemon, than have had to go through the time and money to bring pokemon to market.

When a company brings the product to market before there is an established market in place it usually involves huge amounts of time and money to force it upon people, even when it's not specifically wanted, but ultimately accepted.

>The PROBLEM Richard is it is NOT simple. It
> is NOT something everyone can do. Finding a
> MARKET takes incredibly hard work. Finding
> and testing a product is arduous.

I have to agree that making money from your own efforts isn't magic, yes it involves work, hard or easy is by definition. Is working in a coal mine for 2 months hard work compared to reading information and then applying it, testing it and learning from it as you go? It's all relative. The person in the coal mine finds sitting at a computer all day learning, testing and developing too difficult and yet you couldn't pay the developer to go in a mine for 10 minutes.

>Marketing
> is hardly as simple as AIDA. Although that
> plays an important part in one of the sales
> processes that take place.

Marketing is as simple as AIDA. AIDA works, it's made probably trillions of dollars. It's a simple concept to explain, grasp and apply.

> The reason there are so many SCAM sites, and
> the reason so many people start and quit
> businesses every year is because it is NOT
> simple or easy.

I have to disagree, people fail in business, because they either have something no one wants, they have no idea how to market or both.

> This is an excellent way to do it. But it is
> only one way. And you are an experienced
> marketer with a lot of success. My thing is
> this: skills of success are not easily
> transferrable or even easily acquired. MOST
> people who attempt to just use the AIDA
> formula come in too far up the line, before
> they know WHY they are even doing what they
> are doing.

> MOST people are not cut out to do the AIDA
> formula either in person or by REMOTE MEANS.
> It is my opinion that these are skills that
> can be hired out, and free the Entrepreneur
> to do other things.

I truly beleive that anyone can apply MPM(AIDA) to any situation and make it work. It's not magic, yes, I agree it requires work, but is it hard? Compared to what some people are already doing with their lives, I don't think so.

But it does require you to be prepared to learn and unfortuately many people want a magic genie that they can rub when they want something.

Gordon, thanks for your excellent response, I disagree with much of it, but value all of it indeed. It's good to find a public place where our opinions can be shared for the benefit of everyone without it turning into a flame war and constant deletion.

Richard.

P.S. 95% of all the people who ever buy anything that shows them how to specifically do something, will probably never apply any of it. Yet it gives them joy and hope to posses the knowledge. Is it wrong for us to give them what they want, so they can get a little closer to their dream? I believe that it's a very honourable thing to do, because there will always be that 5% who will actually take what you give them and move forward and reach their goals.

Thanks Richard and Gordon....

I'll just jump in with a quick comment....

I believe that differences of opinion do have their place. In fact, I find I can often learn MORE when I have two differing opinions in front of me....

It doesn't mean that one is right and the other is wrong. Often, both are RIGHT, they just are looking at things from different perspectives and preferences....

Gordon did talk a little bit about AIDA in one of his earlier posts from almost a month ago.... you can read it here....

Thanks :)

Dien

P.S. As long as it doesn't degenerate into insults or personal attacks, I'm okay with it....

I am not a marketer.

And it is not so much opinion as fact.

YOU are right. I've said, no, PREACHED the same thing for years...about marketing.

So, we really don't have a difference of opinion on that.

But marketing is something people do. It normally is a way of securing finances, or income.

Although this board is currently being visited by many guys who do marketing, it is not about marketing. And my view is more global.

It sees marketing as one part, one aspect of life.

There are important lessons we can learn, like AIDA, although I was taught the AIDCAS formula...

Attention, Interest, Desire, CONCLUSION, Action...and most important

SATISFACTION.

But they both are about the same thing, I prefer AIDCAS, mainly because of the SATISFACTION.

Richard we both know many people, some well known gurus who don't deliver the satisfaction part.

But, my point is, that I have to take the bigger picture into consideration.

You addressed marketing. And you're right. No doubt about that.

But I address DESIRE. And I have to extend my definition of marketing to be more inclusive...not just about products for sale...but to include ideology as well.

YES, the AIDA formula stands up across the board, but the targets are different.

For desire to be the "most important part of any marketing" it has to exist.

If marketing an idea, a concept, and you are trying to influence or persuade people to accept this (so you would in fact be marketing to them)

you have to CREATE the desire. They don't have it or know it exists. OH, it would be fun to get into a discourse, and it all would come down to the filtering of stimuli as I've outlined in the past on these matters.

I'm not arguing your point. You are right.

Desire is the most misunderstood area of the marketer...

because if they really could activate desire, they would get more than a 4 to 5% response to a cold list...a highly targeted list, one with responders of recency and frequency and multiple buys...but still only get a small fraction of that universe to respond.

Which means they were inept at flaming the fires of desire.

It doesn't take but 2 or 3 people out of 100 to make you rich, right? But I look to the 95 out of 100 who do not buy...WHY?

Why, with all this NLP, and Advanced Techniques, and Tested and Proven Marekting Strategies...WHY are the marketers not able to use the formulas and get better results? What is missing?

It is my opinion that there is a major lack of understanding about motivation, and desire to begin with. That is one of the reasons I want to bring SQUARE ONE WORKSHOPS out.

You talk of a built in "want", but aside from the basic needs, most people (free world) are clueless as to what they want beyond the immediate gratifications...or what it is that would really allow themselves to be fulfilled.

Marketing appeals to superficial wants, and I don't mean unimportant, they most certainly are...but they are on the surface of human want.

The great Gary Halbert taught marketers to appeal to the "greed gland", ...and I haven't seen anything written or spoken in the last 20 years that deviates from this proposition.

So, if you are marketing at that level, then YES, of course you have to follow the "rules" of marketing.

When I put on my marketing hat, that is exactly what I do...

Although instead of the greed gland marketing, I'm choosing the path less traveled, the WE gland.

Most marketers don't get it. They don't understand it.

They know WIN/WIN...

but they don't go to WIN/WIN/WIN...

Richard I know you are a very successful marketer, and you came under some pretty heavy attack at other forums, something that will NOT be tolerated here.

WE don't attack, it goes against what WE believe. We welcome different opinions, different perspectives, different views.

That is what makes a community valuable.

Also Richard, note, I'm working hard to invite many women to this forum from areas that have nothing to do with marketing per se, I know you can argue and I accept the point that EVERYTHING must be marketed...I agree.

But, in asking for and receiving different input, WE can expand the paradigm, and get away from the gurus and their "troops".

It amazes me (although I do understand commitment and consistency) how when the guru comes under attack, the troops mobilize to his defense...and with great DESIRE to defeat the alledged attacker...YOU know what I mean.

So, feel free to express a different opinion. I don't really KNOW of any right or wrong...except when tested and it doesn't work.

In the SQ1, WE call that adjustment. Test, find out what works, continue, test, find out what doesn't work, continue, adjust...reach the goal...continue on with life.

So, what I want everyone to keep in mind, is,

that my responses are often not limited to the topic, but I'll take a step or two back and look at the global point. The bigger picture if you will.

And as always, I reserve the right to be wrong too.

Thanks for your post Richard, you are always welcome to post your opinions and hopefully we will continue to disagree on some issues, it is what makes it better for the WE...

Gordon Alexander

dno

> Yes this make sense and I totally agree,
> however,

> I started my selling career at 7 or 8
> selling flowers door-to-door.

> Now, I've written about my
> "mentor" who probably taught me as
> much about selling as anyone...and how he
> gave me books to read on selling.

> The problem I had (or one of them) was this:

> the flowers I was selling, I had picked for
> FREE in a field behind most of the houses I
> was selling to.

> It was an old nursery that had been abandon
> and gone to seed, I drove Dien by it looking
> for the lone sentinel that still pops up
> every Spring and serves as a reminder to
> what once was, it is a daffodil.

> So, how do you sell something people can get
> for free if they WANTED them?

> The first book I read at 8 was Elmer
> Wheeler's "Tested Sentences". the
> second was Elmer Leterman's "The SALE
> begins when the customer says NO."

> But I was able to sell FLOWERS to people who
> really didn't WANT them, or else they would
> have gone into the field and picked the
> flowers themselves.

> But maybe I was just too darn cute to
> resist?

> Maybe, a couple of years ago I took a
> part-time Summer job selling FROZEN meat off
> the back of a Pick-up truck.

> Ever have one of THOSE guys knock on your
> door?

> HELLO, that was me. And I did it to test
> myself, my selling skills, to see if I still
> could walk the talk, because I try to
> encouarge everyone to take at least one
> selling job in their lives.

> Preferably door-to-door. The list is fairly
> impressive of people who have done this.

> NOW, door to door is hardly TARGETED
> marketing, and you rarely encounter people
> who WANT what you are selling.

> So here is where I disagree with the concept
> somewhat.

> It is my job as a marketer to MAKE them want
> it.

> Because maybe they didn't know it even
> existed before I showed up. I met men who
> make six figure incomes selling frozen
> steaks from the back of a pick-up truck. Who
> in their right mind would WANT this? Or even
> BUY this?

> That is what I thought as I started to sell
> it. First thing I did was to buy a case
> myself. Then I had a party, and cooked the
> meat in the box.

> First day on the job I sold 3 cases within
> the first hour. To complete strangers. NONE
> of whom wanted what I had to sell.

> At 259 bucks a pop. That was over 750
> dollars in sales in the first hour, I
> learned HOW some of these guys could make 60
> and 70 thousand dollars a year.

> I didn't believe it at first. But after a
> few days on the job, I could see how easy it
> could be FOR THE RIGHT KIND OF PERSON.

> In between the flowers of my youth and the
> Pick-up Steak experiment...I have sold a lot
> of stuff...door-to-door when I needed some
> really quick bucks.

> Stuff that no ONE wanted per se. Like the
> DEFENDER OF WOMEN, or the Victory Miracle
> Polishing Cloth...a couple of my bread and
> butter winners.

> Or when I sold businesses on Action Ads,
> which were clocks placed in pizza shops and
> dry cleaners, and the ads would rotate in a
> neon lighted frame.

> Or TVs, VCRs, Stereo Equipment...although
> this is a different type of selling because
> they come to you in a retail
> environment...but DAK and Comstrad, and JS&A
> did OK selling stuff people WANTED after
> they were sold on it.

> NOT told about it, but carefully crafted
> SALES attempts to get you to WANT it.

> NOW this I agreee with, and as I've written
> about below, I too have done this. I think
> my SQUARE ONE WORKSHOPS might fall into this
> category. But I don't know yet. I havent'
> really tried to SELL it either.

> I agree here too, but experience has taught
> me that MARKETS can be created. The
> INNOVATOR takes the risks, then the rest of
> the group follows safely on tested and
> proven methodology...

> for example, Ben Suarez used the COMIC
> section, and ran full page ads, it was
> unheard of at the time, there was no MARKET
> there.

> But, he built a huge winner from those ads,
> and his company keeps chugging away to the
> tune of 125+ million dollars a year.

> Was there a MARKET for the Heraldry Name
> idea that Gary Halbert came up with?

> The "Nancy" Letter is one of the
> greatest pieces of salesmanship in print
> ever created. There was NO market with money
> burning a hole in it's pocket, just waiting
> for Sir Gary to ride in and take it.

> The MARKET was created. By the product. And
> more importantly by the SALESMANSHIP.

> Innovators almost always inroduce product
> before market. Steven Jobs had a market for
> the PC?

> There was no obvious market are

> Which is my point and opinion, it is OK to
> do that as long as you know that innovation
> is the harder road, the least likely to
> succeed, the one that requires the most
> work, BUT, may also have the greater payoff.

> In sales, the RISK/REWARD idea as shown on
> the Pictogrigm of Finances holds true, just
> as it does in investment worlds.

> And here is where I agree, for the beginner,
> or for the marketer who wants a "sure
> thing", or as close as possible as you
> can get to one.

> Don't get me wrong, I've said the same thing
> for a dozen years. MARKET FIRST, product
> second.

> But, I've seen the exceptions. In 1985 WHO
> wanted a VCR? Product came first, then it
> was up to people like me to SELL them.

> Same with the CD player when it first
> arrived? Who would buy that, although you
> could argure there is always a MARKET for
> music...so I'd have to conceed that point.

> Now here is an AMEN to that statement. I
> agree.

> The PROBLEM that very few talk about is the
> COMPETITION for a market. Take the whole
> biz-op/money making market. Going to go
> away?

> Hardly. But is it harder to compete in? Jim
> Straw, a man who has sold MILLIONS of
> dollars of stuff via mailorder addressed
> this on another forum recently, saying that
> there is a LOT more choices for people, and
> that thins the stew for the market.

> Here's a market...Internet Marketing...

> How many books and courses and web sites are
> dedicated to this MARKET (1/2 the net,
> right? HA!)

> But a person can only read so much, learn so
> much, spend so much money that it would be
> in my opinion a harder market to
> CONTINUOUSLY pump the money from.

> And marketers like to and should go to the
> well that gives them water.

> But at some point the MARKET gets too thin
> or saturated...until an INNOVATOR comes up
> with a different way to market.

> There is not a day that goes by that at
> least ONE good idea shows up at a forum.
> FREE for anyone who wants to run with it.
> But that is also part of the problem,
> getting people to DO.

> Again, I agree, but also DISAGREE. I may not
> know BEANS about astrology, but if I know
> there is a hungry market in this case and I
> have access to a person/company with
> products of interest, here is where the JV
> comes in handy. Most people don't regard a
> JV as a marketing effort, but it most
> definitely is.

> If you like pink hats (no I

> But, if you are an INNOVATOR, you create a
> PINK hat, get Madonna in days gone by or
> today Brittany Spears to wear a pink hat in
> her next video...and write a hit song about
> how cool pink hats are...you CREATE THE
> MARKET...

> Sound FAR OUT?

> Well, I guess I could throw out Gary Dahl
> and the PET ROCK for an example...any MARKET
> there?

> Totally created for the product. Yes there
> was a gift market. Yes there was an
> "unusual gift" market (and as an
> aside, take note, Spencer Gifts is making a
> comeback, do you have a crazy gift idea?)

> AMEN again. Don't fall in love, test test
> test.
> But you can use other people's INTERESTS
> same as you can use their talent, their
> money or their time. Fall in love with what
> you are doing.

> Within the DOING, a part of that might be
> marketing, might be product development,
> might be innovation, might be acquistion of
> a cash cow.

> Just love the day and the processes of the
> day.

> The PROBLEM Richard is it is NOT simple. It
> is NOT something everyone can do. Finding a
> MARKET takes incredibly hard work. Finding
> and testing a product is arduous. Marketing
> is hardly as simple as AIDA. Although that
> plays an important part in one of the sales
> processes that take place.

> The reason there are so many SCAM sites, and
> the reason so many people start and quit
> businesses every year is because it is NOT
> simple or easy.

> It is hard dang work.

> This is an excellent way to do it. But it is
> only one way. And you are an experienced
> marketer with a lot of success. My thing is
> this: skills of success are not easily
> transferrable or even easily acquired. MOST
> people who attempt to just use the AIDA
> formula come in too far up the line, before
> they know WHY they are even doing what they
> are doing.

> MOST people are not cut out to do the AIDA
> formula either in person or by REMOTE MEANS.
> It is my opinion that these are skills that
> can be hired out, and free the Entrepreneur
> to do other things.

> Case in point, Rick Smith, the Net
> Guerrilla, once he let the PROS do his
> graphic, it was a catalyst to help him FOCUS
> in on what he does best. So, as simple as a
> graphic might be for some people, if it is
> not the right one, then the AIDA formula
> falls apart at the outset, because you may
> have captured attention, but for the wrong
> reasons.

> but

> NO you can never DRONE on long enough here,
> we like DRONING, my picture is next to it in
> the dictionary.

> I appreciate your sharing your expertise
> with us, you have done some remarkable
> things, I for one am dying to know some of
> those inside secrets, but alas, I don't have
> the time to do it. Nor the want. You are
> going to have sell me.

> I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT, except
> where I might have disagreed above. OK?

> Gordon Alexander

Thanks Boyd....

I bet it can't be easy to create your own market, but if you can do it successfully, the world is your oyster....

By the way, Boyd, you have a great web site... I'll be emailing you about getting Sowpub listed there (and a link to you from here)....

Keep up the great work! :)

- Dien

Hi,

I'd love to have your site listed at my site. Phil Wiley and others have told me they're happy about the traffic they're getting back, so it should work into a win-win situation.

I need to get some more banners and especially get more and better button graphics made to make it easier on people to trade links. I'll have that done really soon.

Best,

-Boyd