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  #1  
Old January 18, 2021, 11:26 PM
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GordonJ GordonJ is offline
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Default I think they are WRONG. But...

Since last week I have been in deep study of...

MOBS. Crowds. Herds.

So much of the psychology of mob behavior, is over 100 years old. And there are theories galore.

Last week, what I've read mostly from the Psychology pundits, the Capitol Mob exhibited social identity theory as the main underlying "reason" for the behavior of the crowd.

Membership theory. They were the cult of Trump. KEY authority figures (leaders) were made on the spot. None of the speakers of the day were leading the herd.

It was the Animal House version of the drum major in front taking the band into a dead end alley, from the many reports, no one in the crowd thought any one person or group was "in charge" or leading. Only a few dozen of the thousands actually entered the building, many were bystanders.

Well, I'll let this week shake out, see what tomorrow brings, some say the police are waiting until after Wed. to issue arrest warrants, they fear some of the "leaders" would be pardoned by Trump. We'll know soon enough.

Now oddly, I was right in the middle of reviewing years and hundreds of pages of notes on Audience Influence (an audience is a well behaved mob?)...and persuasion and found notebooks from the 60 and 70's on cults, crowd behavior {one such notebook was when the Guru Maha Ji came to San Francisco and later Rennie Davis was pitching DLM Divine Light Mission in 73}

I've had a long interest in cults, and went to many events, and honestly...if I had been more of a student of say, a Leni Riefenstahl, who created the masterpiece of propaganda. TRIUMPH OF THE WILL...

I might have been more observant...because, and this should get me in trouble...

Between AMWAY rallies, DLM's Millennium 73 event, Stadiums full of Billy Graham followers during a 'crusade'...a Trump rally...or a Cleveland celebration of a Browns NFL Superbowl title (imagined)

It might be hard to discern the maddening of the crowds. The common thread is the feverish pitch obtained by the masses, like a Beatles concert in 1965.

Most of those were non violent, however, we do remember Chicago in 68, speaking of Rennie Davis and Altamont in 69. When huge numbers of people gather, some unpredictable things might happen.

Or are they unpredictable? Like I say, in the next few weeks we'll get a clearer picture of how much was known BEFORE the 6th about possible violence. Get the conspiracy machine revved up, there are lots of ways it can go.

But as I was researching SALES tecnique, and selling from the podium, and all things influence and so called words that sell (or incite), I've found this one thing.

Which bothers me. And that is I can't believe how much we believe about sales, copywriting, persuasion, influence which is based upon very little evidence and mostly small group studies from college professors using not much more than a classroom full of people, yet, extrapolating the behavior of the masses from their, in my opinion. biased experiments.

I have come to believe there is a mountain of evidence against the body of work done long ago and that much of what we teach and learn are false premises.

More later.

Gordon
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  #2  
Old January 19, 2021, 02:08 AM
Dien Rice Dien Rice is online now
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Default I've been delving into "non-standard" cults...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post
Since last week I have been in deep study of...

MOBS. Crowds. Herds.

So much of the psychology of mob behavior, is over 100 years old. And there are theories galore.

Last week, what I've read mostly from the Psychology pundits, the Capitol Mob exhibited social identity theory as the main underlying "reason" for the behavior of the crowd.

Membership theory. They were the cult of Trump. KEY authority figures (leaders) were made on the spot. None of the speakers of the day were leading the herd.
Hi Gordon,

While you were researching that, I've been delving deeper into cults...

Particularly "non-standard" cults...

I think we're going to have a fascinating conversation sharing what we've learned!

A "standard" cult to me is the typical "Jim Jones"-"Heaven's Gate" type of cult... A charismatic religious leader, who has absolute control over his or her followers.

But there are "non-standard" cults too...

Some are a "cult of personality"... It doesn't need to be religious. The leader may not absolutely control his or her followers, but they look to the leader for guidance... Many cult techniques are still used (like black & white thinking, thought-stopping techniques, or having an enemy, and encouraging in his followers the feeling of persecution by that enemy)...

Others are more "ideology" driven, and may not even have a "leader"...

I hope to share more, too... It's one thing to focus on those "Jim Jones"-"Heaven's Gate" type of cults... And another thing to delve into these other types of cults, which often "fly under the radar" in our society's awareness of cults...

Best wishes,

Dien
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  #3  
Old January 21, 2021, 12:53 PM
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Default You have a LOT to work with after these last four years.

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Originally Posted by Dien Rice View Post
Hi Gordon,

While you were researching that, I've been delving deeper into cults...

Particularly "non-standard" cults...

I think we're going to have a fascinating conversation sharing what we've learned!

A "standard" cult to me is the typical "Jim Jones"-"Heaven's Gate" type of cult... A charismatic religious leader, who has absolute control over his or her followers.

But there are "non-standard" cults too...

Some are a "cult of personality"... It doesn't need to be religious. The leader may not absolutely control his or her followers, but they look to the leader for guidance... Many cult techniques are still used (like black & white thinking, thought-stopping techniques, or having an enemy, and encouraging in his followers the feeling of persecution by that enemy)...

Others are more "ideology" driven, and may not even have a "leader"...

I hope to share more, too... It's one thing to focus on those "Jim Jones"-"Heaven's Gate" type of cults... And another thing to delve into these other types of cults, which often "fly under the radar" in our society's awareness of cults...

Best wishes,

Dien

Well, the word itself is a trigger for many people. My dad thought and taught that the Catholic Church was a cult. I doubt many Catholics think that, eh?

So, what is a cult? Sort of like porn maybe, can't define it, but know it when I see it.

And we've seem some off the charts behavior, culminating with the attack on the Capitol, and we've only just begun.

I suspect many of these cultists, don't understand the difference between mouthing off on the Internet, and taking action in the real world, where they can't hide behind anonymous musings in their groups.

From a marketing stand point, and my view, being an Old Timer running on fumes, I'm gonna dance with the Bae I brung to the party.

Although selling to cults can be quite lucrative, especially if you are an undercover ATF agent, ha!

Gordon
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  #4  
Old January 23, 2021, 02:57 AM
Dien Rice Dien Rice is online now
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Default Quite controversial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post
Well, the word itself is a trigger for many people. My dad thought and taught that the Catholic Church was a cult. I doubt many Catholics think that, eh?

So, what is a cult? Sort of like porn maybe, can't define it, but know it when I see it.

And we've seem some off the charts behavior, culminating with the attack on the Capitol, and we've only just begun.

I suspect many of these cultists, don't understand the difference between mouthing off on the Internet, and taking action in the real world, where they can't hide behind anonymous musings in their groups.

From a marketing stand point, and my view, being an Old Timer running on fumes, I'm gonna dance with the Bae I brung to the party.

Although selling to cults can be quite lucrative, especially if you are an undercover ATF agent, ha!
Hi Gordon,

Good question - what is a "cult"?

Some follow the "BITE" model... (due to Steve Hassan, who's big in the anti-cult community)... which stands for

Behavior control
Information control
Thought control
Emotion control

I guess the idea is a "cult" needs to control all of those things!

Two things have stimulated my investigation here...

One is Landmark (aka the Landmark Forum and Landmark Education)! A friend of mine got heavily into it... Those heavily into it always give them many many hours of free labor, as volunteers - even though Landmark is a for-profit company! (That the followers are giving so much free labor - particularly to a for-profit company - is a red flag in my opinion...)

The second is Trump... It dawned on me that the phrase "Fake News" is both a thought-stopping technique, and also an information-control technique... As soon as some people hear it - they stop thinking, and stop investigating... Pretty ingenious...

Best wishes,

Dien
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  #5  
Old January 23, 2021, 04:12 PM
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GordonJ GordonJ is offline
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Default Re: Quite controversial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dien Rice View Post
Hi Gordon,

Good question - what is a "cult"?

Some follow the "BITE" model... (due to Steve Hassan, who's big in the anti-cult community)... which stands for

Behavior control
Information control
Thought control
Emotion control

I guess the idea is a "cult" needs to control all of those things!

Two things have stimulated my investigation here...

One is Landmark (aka the Landmark Forum and Landmark Education)! A friend of mine got heavily into it... Those heavily into it always give them many many hours of free labor, as volunteers - even though Landmark is a for-profit company! (That the followers are giving so much free labor - particularly to a for-profit company - is a red flag in my opinion...)

The second is Trump... It dawned on me that the phrase "Fake News" is both a thought-stopping technique, and also an information-control technique... As soon as some people hear it - they stop thinking, and stop investigating... Pretty ingenious...

Best wishes,

Dien

I'll have something to say about LANDMARK later, but for BITE...

So, I see this lady almost everyday playing with her 4 kids in the parking lot of a church across the street. Four kids, all preschool age. She is a stay at home mom.

When you came to Cuyahoga Falls, and stayed at the Sheraton, across the street, one block away is a school. Been there for 70+ years.

When you were here, that woman with the four kids, was a student at that school.

Probably in the second grade. Soon, her eldest kid will be in Kindergarten there too, and all four will be there at the same time for the next 15 years or so.

This woman, and her kids, attend the church several times a week. On Sundays, pre Covid, she met with other families for a "Church Social". Did so when she was a kid, a teen, and now as a mom.

Her mother and father went to this church, so did her Grandparents, I know because I grew up in the the neighborhood, hard for me to believe her parents were just a little bit younger than me.

Her BEHAVIOR was absolutely controlled in her childhood, same as she is controlling her kids behavior today. It mirrors the behavior of generations of that family.

Her INFORMATION about life, was very controlled via the school, which has very strict interpretations on what is right and wrong and how to live.

It was the INFORMATION put in her young mind, same as she is now doing to her kids. And this particular information comes with some serious consequences if not adhered to.

THOUGHT control. She speaks like her mom, dad, grandparents, and so will her kids. She thinks like them too. So will her kids. She BELIEVES she has the right thinking for a successful life in this world.

EMOTIONAL control. She was married in the church, her emotions are closely tied to the church doctrines.

And this cult, isn't some little rural, out there, hillbilly snake handling, tongue talking fainting in the isles little cult of the Hatfields and McCoys...

Her CULT, according to BITE, is the richest, most powerful church in the world, with a CENTRAL LEADER, who has God's ear, and more importantly, God gives him divine messages.

The CATHOLIC church, and like the one across the street, has centuries upon centuries and millions and millions of people who are members of the cult.

How do they get deprogrammed?

LANDMARK (more later) by comparison to the Catholic church is a young choir boy in the back row, but, could produce many a priest in time.

Gordon

Last edited by GordonJ : January 23, 2021 at 05:15 PM.
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  #6  
Old January 27, 2021, 04:14 AM
Dien Rice Dien Rice is online now
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Default The C_______ Church...

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Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post
The CATHOLIC church, and like the one across the street, has centuries upon centuries and millions and millions of people who are members of the cult.

How do they get deprogrammed?
Hi Gordon,

I haven't read any of Steve Hassan's stuff directly, but I've seen how others apply the BITE model...

I'll just talk about Information Control as an example...

Firstly, information control absolutely happens with kids, everywhere. We keep them away from pornography, violence (sometimes), swearing, and so on...

So, at least when people apply the BITE model, they're generally talking about adults...

And with information control, they are talking about (as you also mentioned) not only providing information, but also more generally about restricting access to "outside" information...

One example is Scientology. They have the concept of an "SP" - or a Suppressive Person. That generally means someone who is against Scientology, or who is a former Scientologist who left.

Scientologists are (to my understanding) absolutely not supposed to associate with SPs at all - even if they are your parents, your siblings, or your kids...

Tom Cruise (a well-known Scientologist) and Nicole Kidman adopted two kids when they were married - Connor and Bella. Connor and Bella are adults now, and are Scientologists - and apparently have nothing to do with Nicole Kidman. That is said to be because Nicole is an "SP" - so Connor and Bella should not, and do not, associate with her in any way according to Scientology beliefs, even though she is their adoptive mother.

This is a form of information control - the Scientology organization don't want Scientologists being exposed to "harmful information" (from Scientology's point of view) from SPs...

Now, with Catholicism... To my knowledge, at the present time, they don't restrict information that way. Catholics (again, to my knowledge) can pretty much talk to anybody. In practice, they can read what they want (they may need to go to confession and say some Our Fathers to absolve themselves of sin, but that's a pretty light "penance" I think)...

So, I don't think Catholicism, as it is practiced today, fits the description of Information control, at least how I understand it...

(Now, the Catholic Church in the past was a lot more restrictive! Banned books, the Spanish Inquisition, the trial of Galileo for saying the earth goes around the sun, and all kinds of "information control" along those lines... But these don't - to my knowledge - happen today...)

Best wishes,

Dien
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  #7  
Old January 27, 2021, 04:35 AM
MM1969
 
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Default Re: I think they are WRONG. But...

From what I can tell it's not only the Catholic Church, but in general religions have this issue. By supressing emotions and access to information, they hope to keep everything and everyone in control. As we can see, they're having a harder time maintaining this since we have access to Internet.

Now this brings me to another issue - social media. I'm sure you have noticed how they are currently supressing people who think differently. At the moment it's only extremist right wingers, but what will stop them from limiting others from free speech if it doesn't seem fit to their TOS? They are in the goverment now. People from Twitter, Facebook, Amazon etc. I'm fearful of what's to come if they know everything and will use all of their power against us.
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  #8  
Old January 27, 2021, 11:23 AM
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Default Good points, bigger issues too.

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From what I can tell it's not only the Catholic Church, but in general religions have this issue. By supressing emotions and access to information, they hope to keep everything and everyone in control. As we can see, they're having a harder time maintaining this since we have access to Internet.

Now this brings me to another issue - social media. I'm sure you have noticed how they are currently supressing people who think differently. At the moment it's only extremist right wingers, but what will stop them from limiting others from free speech if it doesn't seem fit to their TOS? They are in the goverment now. People from Twitter, Facebook, Amazon etc. I'm fearful of what's to come if they know everything and will use all of their power against us.

The problem, like in defining a cult, is having an agreed upon definition of what the Internet is. China, N. Korea and other countries around the world define it as a public utility, with all the red tape, rules and regulations which come with it.

Most of the free world does not. Obama called on strict mandates for broadband providers. This WAR is just beginning, albeit, the battles have been ongoing since long before the Internet.

Then, there is the ownership perspective. And honestly, your post is a bit on the conspiracy side of things...THEY already know everything and THEY have always been in power. Left, right, Democrat or Republican or whatever THEY call themselves doesn't matter.

It is and always has been a fight between those in power and those NOT.

The Internet was to be the great level playing field, but it was never home to free unedited speech.

Do we have the right to 'suppress' (which is another conspiracy trigger or dog whistle word) the people who come to SowPub and start bashing someone? We say YES, we do and we have suppressed those types.

Now, all social media, as you call it, is OWNED by someone, usually a corporate entity, and if that is a publicly traded company have fiduciary responsibilities to their share holders.

Twitter in USA, is a different thing than in China. At the end of the day, we may see the THEY in power deem all TOS to be illegal.

In USA, THEY use eminent domain to seize property for the common good, and what we are witnessing may be the virtual equivalent of that, THEY are behind closed doors even as we speak, and THEY have been there the last four years too.

I don't see anyone's view being suppressed, but if social media is one's only soap box, then maybe getting a different street corner might bode one well.

Gordon
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Old January 27, 2021, 11:04 AM
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Default BITE is only one guy's definition.

Yes, fair enough. But Hassan, is just one person and his definition has to suit his purpose, the person in charge of the definition is the power.

But, a look at standard dictionary and modern psychology definitions and one that seems to be a good definition is found at Wikipedia of all places:

In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object, or goal. This sense of the term is controversial, having divergent definitions both in popular culture and academia, and has also been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study.[1][2]:34856 The word "cult" is usually considered pejorative.


And I contend it is controversial, because the definer, may have something different in mind. People like Colin Theriot of The Cult of Copy Facebook page doesn't consider it pejorative, nor his 31k followers (more than some religious cults).

So, I don't accept Hassan's BITE definition. And Scientology is cherry picking of the cults, I'd bet a majority of people think of it as a cult.

My issues stem from not knowing what someone means, when they use the word, without context...cause I may think differently.

I've known several deprogrammers, and I think their zealous attempts to REconvert a "lost soul" to the fold of any given belief system, may make them a cult unto themselves.

And SP is right out of Amish land, shunning being a form of excommunication. Old L. Ron borrowed from several cults to form his. The fact it is called a church, is all about TAXES and collections, and was a legal battle they won in courts.

I like to study and talk about cults, but I want to make sure we are clear about the context and what we bring with us, as to what and how it is defined.

Gordon






Quote:
Originally Posted by Dien Rice View Post
Hi Gordon,

I haven't read any of Steve Hassan's stuff directly, but I've seen how others apply the BITE model...

I'll just talk about Information Control as an example...

Firstly, information control absolutely happens with kids, everywhere. We keep them away from pornography, violence (sometimes), swearing, and so on...

So, at least when people apply the BITE model, they're generally talking about adults...

And with information control, they are talking about (as you also mentioned) not only providing information, but also more generally about restricting access to "outside" information...

One example is Scientology. They have the concept of an "SP" - or a Suppressive Person. That generally means someone who is against Scientology, or who is a former Scientologist who left.

Scientologists are (to my understanding) absolutely not supposed to associate with SPs at all - even if they are your parents, your siblings, or your kids...

Tom Cruise (a well-known Scientologist) and Nicole Kidman adopted two kids when they were married - Connor and Bella. Connor and Bella are adults now, and are Scientologists - and apparently have nothing to do with Nicole Kidman. That is said to be because Nicole is an "SP" - so Connor and Bella should not, and do not, associate with her in any way according to Scientology beliefs, even though she is their adoptive mother.

This is a form of information control - the Scientology organization don't want Scientologists being exposed to "harmful information" (from Scientology's point of view) from SPs...

Now, with Catholicism... To my knowledge, at the present time, they don't restrict information that way. Catholics (again, to my knowledge) can pretty much talk to anybody. In practice, they can read what they want (they may need to go to confession and say some Our Fathers to absolve themselves of sin, but that's a pretty light "penance" I think)...

So, I don't think Catholicism, as it is practiced today, fits the description of Information control, at least how I understand it...

(Now, the Catholic Church in the past was a lot more restrictive! Banned books, the Spanish Inquisition, the trial of Galileo for saying the earth goes around the sun, and all kinds of "information control" along those lines... But these don't - to my knowledge - happen today...)

Best wishes,

Dien
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  #10  
Old February 1, 2021, 12:28 AM
Dien Rice Dien Rice is online now
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Default The definition of a cult is a slippery thing...

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I like to study and talk about cults, but I want to make sure we are clear about the context and what we bring with us, as to what and how it is defined.
Hi Gordon,

I agree the definition of a cult is a slippery thing!

I've only recently come to like the "BITE" model... The reason why I like it is mainly because it seems it can be used for what I'm calling "non-traditional" cults...

A "traditional" cult the way I'm using it is one where there is a charismatic leader on top, who everyone follows obediently... Examples are NXIVM, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, Jim Jones, and so on...

But there are definitely "cult-like" entities where this is not the case... Landmark is one... the "cult" of Trump could be another...

A guy named "Telltale" on YouTube often analyzes cults using a form of the BITE model in quite an effective way, I thought...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgI...BQ8HKL8QUccsOQ

(I think he was once a Jehovah's Witness - which he considers a cult...)

An interesting perspective I came across is the view that something is a "cult" not based on their beliefs (which could be about anything) - but rather based on how they control people... In this view, the beliefs are almost incidental!

But - you're right... There are a lot of disparate views here!

Best wishes,

Dien
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