What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by ascendedmind

(Edited to address this:


In fact, I believe he no longer does self-publishing & has moved on to more profitable opportunities requiring less of his time. Whereas todays so called internet marketing gurus believe in selling big ticket information products &/or high-priced information seminars & doing joint-ventures with other marketers to make their fortunes.


This is definitely not Harvey Brody’s style & would never attach his name to such programs or associate with such marketers.

Well the reason he quit publishing was EMPLOYEES. He's not opposed to publishing and the Internet affords a world wide audience, millions could be building their own harbors with his methodology. Keep in mind many of these guys including Dan Kennedy (a local favorite) learned from Harvey and the gurus of their day.

The problem is scale, and having the right methods in place. His "style" is to operate on a global scale but he would work with "such marketers".

His thinking is a tad bit bigger.

Gordon

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by ascendedmind

Perhaps Dien or Gordon with guidance from Harvey would consider providing a tutorial to the serious-minded who they want to align with in a win-win situation to eliminate any curiosity seekers, time wasters or losers.

A written non-disclosure could be provided if Harvey feels such is needed.

In other words use a system to streamline & make it virtually automatic to qualify & attract winning toll positions. Instead of using this as a gimmick to sell an information product like so many do to 80-90% & more of the people who never take the required action.

We're all ears if you have a solution.

What would that "system" look like? And how "automatic"?

Would the tutorial be the means to "qualify"? NDA's are a given in any business dealing with ideas.

So, if you have the idea for this system, describe how it works.

Gordon

[Dien Rice]

Thank you all for your feedback!

It's been a great discussion...!

Toll positions are very powerful... And the reality is that, here so far, we have only just scratched the surface of what's possible...

I expect to post more on this and related topics in the near future...

Best wishes,

Dien

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Good input Thomas.

Keep in mind a couple things about the info products Dan puts out...

First off he's joked that he wishes that "Ultimate Sales Letter" and "Ultimate Marketing Plan" would go away!

Why?

Because they've "How to's" and not "advocacy" books which represent virtually every other book he's written.

The selling of info products is not DK's prime focus.

His prime focus is to get the $19,000.00 initial consulting fee and then put the wheels in motion for at least a $100,000 copywriting/consulting gig– which many times includes royalties.

For a full understanding of the Dan Kennedy "process" I would suggest his "Influential Writing" workshop that he put on in 2007... I think you would find it to be a real eye-opener!

Keep in mind Dan has talked about "toll position" (and Brody's course) during a couple of his seminars. And he purchased the rights to Dr. Maxwell Maltz's information, which is one way of getting a "toll position"– buy an existing toll position!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this...! Fascinating!

So (to make it clear) - his books are the "front end"... The consulting, copywriting, and possible associated royalties are the "back end"... and where he makes the "real money"...

As for Maxwell Maltz, yes, I think Dan Kennedy and a bunch of others (I think Jeff Paul was also involved) did buy the copyright to Maxwell Maltz's "Psycho-Cybernetics"... I think they even put out a new edition - "The New Psycho-Cybernetics."

Of course, that's only one toll position product. I don't know what they paid, but if they got a good deal, they would have gotten many times their money back, and I'm sure they're still making money from it now. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting many toll positions... There's no reason to stop at just one.

The problem I see with consulting is that you get paid... and that's it. In most cases, you have no further "ownership" of your work. (Copywriting at the "high end," where you can also get paid royalties for sales, may be a little bit different from other types of consulting regarding this - but only as long as they keep running your ad... Plus, it's not like you can provide the same ad to a different client if the first client tires of it.)

With a "product-based" toll position, you can potentially get paid for a longer period into the future... The other thing is, when you "own" the toll position, there are also other things you can do with that. For example, if you owned "Psycho-Cybernetics," you could put out an audio version (they've done that already), make a movie out of it, or a documentary, or have it included as part of a larger collection of similar works (with books or articles owned by others), create a version for teenagers, you could license out excerpts of it to be reprinted in promotional materials, turn the book into a paid seminar tour, have a "Psycho-Cybernetics" coaching program (where others do the coaching under your license), if you have a list of customers, there are further things you can do with that list, create collaborative works, e.g. a Rich Dad / Psycho-Cybernetics product, or a Donald Trump / Psycho-Cybernetics product, etc. For all these other ideas, you can get others to do the work, because you own the valuable "toll position" - so they can't bypass you.

Best wishes,

Dien

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Which brings me back to my whole point in all this... I think creating or finding or building a "toll position" is a difficult thing to pull off.

Hi Mike,

I think different "toll positions" (obviously) have different values... For example, owning the copyright to "Psycho-Cybernetics" or "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" is probably more valuable than owning the copyright to a book all about an obscure Australian radio play that ran in the 1930s/1940s. (A friend of a friend co-wrote the book I'm talking about - and he and the other author really struggled to sell copies, because it's about such an obscure interest!)

However, valuable toll positions can be bought, or you can do a deal. I recently purchased a set of audiobooks (in a non-business niche), produced by an expert in that niche, in which I'll own the copyright outright. The author put a lot of time and effort into it, and spent more money than I paid for it (and that doesn't even count the hundreds if not thousands of hours of his time), and it's a good product... it even got good reviews in established magazines in that niche. However, it's with these kinds of products where having some sales/marketing skills can really help... There are many people out there who create "toll positions" with great potential, who can't market them. If you can't or don't want to buy them outright, many of them would be open to a profit sharing type of deal. If you do this, just make sure you get the agreement written on paper (that contract will be your toll position!).

Best wishes,

Dien

Originally Posted by Dien Rice

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this...! Fascinating!

So (to make it clear) - his books are the "front end"... The consulting, copywriting, and possible associated royalties are the "back end"... and where he makes the "real money"...

As for Maxwell Maltz, yes, I think Dan Kennedy and a bunch of others (I think Jeff Paul was also involved) did buy the copyright to Maxwell Maltz's "Psycho-Cybernetics"... I think they even put out a new edition - "The New Psycho-Cybernetics."

Of course, that's only one toll position product. I don't know what they paid, but if they got a good deal, they would have gotten many times their money back, and I'm sure they're still making money from it now. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting many toll positions... There's no reason to stop at just one.

The problem I see with consulting is that you get paid... and that's it. In most cases, you have no further "ownership" of your work. (Copywriting at the "high end," where you can also get paid royalties for sales, may be a little bit different from other types of consulting regarding this - but only as long as they keep running your ad... Plus, it's not like you can provide the same ad to a different client if the first client tires of it.)

With a "product-based" toll position, you can potentially get paid for a longer period into the future... The other thing is, when you "own" the toll position, there are also other things you can do with that. For example, if you owned "Psycho-Cybernetics," you could put out an audio version (they've done that already), make a movie out of it, or a documentary, or have it included as part of a larger collection of similar works (with books or articles owned by others), create a version for teenagers, you could license out excerpts of it to be reprinted in promotional materials, turn the book into a paid seminar tour, have a "Psycho-Cybernetics" coaching program (where others do the coaching under your license), if you have a list of customers, there are further things you can do with that list, create collaborative works, e.g. a Rich Dad / Psycho-Cybernetics product, or a Donald Trump / Psycho-Cybernetics product, etc. For all these other ideas, you can get others to do the work, because you own the valuable "toll position" - so they can't bypass you.

Best wishes,

Dien

Hey Dien,

No question a consulting toll position is a different animal from a product toll position.

Different strokes for different folks kind of things. Some prefer sitting on the couch eating Cheetos while their product or products sell without their involvement.

Yes in the consulting toll position it's a swop time for money thing, but there's a certain amount of "Hey I'm a celebrity (in my niche)" kind of thing and some like that.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go.

I'd rather see folks just get out and try to find their own toll position in whichever area appeals to them... but I'm probably getting way ahead of myself.

Quite honestly I think getting or earning a toll position is pretty hard. It's most likely not going to happen without a lot of time and other resources invested– at least for a "big potatoes" toll position.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by Dien Rice

However, valuable toll positions can be bought, or you can do a deal.

Here's another example I talked about recently... This is a deal which didn't work out - even though I did get a toll position...

http://www.sowpub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35452

What I didn't mention in the earlier post was that I had a deal with the inventor (who owns the patent in multiple countries) for a percentage of the gross sales, if we got it to marketability. I would spend zero dollars of my own money.

It didn't work out because, although he wanted my advice, he insisted on doing the exact same thing he was doing before, which wasn't working. I pointed out why it didn't work before (and by implication, why it wouldn't work again), but he was very insistent on doing it the exact same way. I suppose he wanted me to perform some "magic" to make it work this time, when the exact same approach before had failed (and failed for very logical reasons).

I explained it in more detail in my earlier post...

After about a month, I said I'm no longer interested, as I realized I was wasting my time. (I've kept tabs on how things are going, and 3 years later, he's still stuck where he was before. He tried a Kickstarter campaign, which failed dismally - he got pledges for less than 3% of the money he was asking for. This is not a product which would lend itself well to a Kickstarter campaign, in my opinion. It's a good product, I think, but most of the people who would buy this product are generally not internet-savvy, and would never have heard of Kickstarter...)

What this shows, though, is the principle... You can get "toll positions" with zero money spent. But yes, there is some work involved in doing it this way... However, lack of money is not really an obstacle to getting toll positions.

Best wishes,

Dien

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by Ankesh

In my mind, I have 2 definitions.

1. Toll position. A place that you create for yourself in the middle of a lucrative field so that everyone who wants to be a part of the field has to pay you a cut. Dan Kennedy does that with his info products (from what I know, Dave Dee sold more Dan Kennedy products than Dan Kennedy himself - at least that was true a few years back) and consulting (he gets royalty / commission on good performance).

2. The moat. As Warren Buffet says. Create a moat around your product or company so that others can't compete with you.

Hi Ankesh,

Thanks for this... I'll have to ponder this...

I do think there is a relationship between "toll positions" and what economists call "barriers to entry"...

I think a lot of Don Alm type ideas are toll positions because no restaurant or hotel will spare adspace for 2 guys. But they may not necessarily be deep moats unless you employ legal contracts to keep things exclusive.

I agree with your point here...

That was partly my point in an earlier post, see the P.S. here...

http://www.sowpub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35260

How easy it is to set up such a multi-year contract, I don't know... Without a contract, I don't see what's stopping someone from coming in and giving the restaurant or hotel a "better deal"...

Of course, the likelihood of that happening may be small. It might also depend where you are - the likelihood is probably smaller in a small town than in a big city...

Best wishes,

Dien