"The Secret" via Oprah Winfrey & actor Jim Carey

Originally Posted by Kbayer

Michael,
I've always enjoyed your posts, but when it comes to sensitive areas such as this, areas that start crossing boundaries of other's religous understandings or beliefs, maybe it would be best to preface your posts regarding these issues with "in my opinion", or "based on what I've heard or read"...
Who knows what "THE TRUTH" really is? there's been a billion teachers before us and will probably be a billion more after us.
To insinuate that some peope's understanding's or beliefs are "delusional" sort of implies that you know the truth and "they" do not. "In my opinion", the word "delusional" carries a negative slant that can be taken in offense, and though this is a very interesting topic to me, it seems to be on the verge of stepping outside the scope of why this forum is here in the first place.
Ken

Everyone has an opinion but there is no clear cut answer and religious choice and beliefs does not make a person delusional
Mark

Originally Posted by Kbayer

Michael,
I've always enjoyed your posts, but when it comes to sensitive areas such as this, areas that start crossing boundaries of other's religous understandings or beliefs, maybe it would be best to preface your posts regarding these issues with "in my opinion", or "based on what I've heard or read"...
Who knows what "THE TRUTH" really is? there's been a billion teachers before us and will probably be a billion more after us.
To insinuate that some peope's understanding's or beliefs are "delusional" sort of implies that you know the truth and "they" do not. "In my opinion", the word "delusional" carries a negative slant that can be taken in offense, and though this is a very interesting topic to me, it seems to be on the verge of stepping outside the scope of why this forum is here in the first place.
Ken

I don't think Michael needs any help from me, however.......
I re-read the whole thread and it wasn't Michael who injected the thread with opinions about religion.

I would also like to input that I feel Michael was giving his opinion by calling it a delusion.
here is a book to read
called "God Delusion"
http://www.randomhouse.com.au/Downlo...ct_revised.pdf

If you believe great, if not, great.
FYI, I take no side in this debate, as I am open to all (believer or not!)

Jason

Ken,

Thanks for your thoughts.

First, let me address the "maybe it would be best to preface your posts" point. Everything I write is, by default, my opinion. So there is no need to write, "In my opinon..."

Plus, as I find those phrases (I think, in my opinion, and so on) to be escape clauses. If a person is Called on what they wrote as being incorrect, they always have the "Yeah, but it was just my opinion" fallback. I choose not to do such and prefer to Stand behind what I write.

Second: The definition of Delusional is, someone suffering from delusions. And the definition of delusion is: A false idea typically originating from a misinterpretation but firmly believed and strongly maintained in spite of contradictory proof or evidence; Delusion refers to belief in something that contradicts reality; Anything that deceives the mind with a false impression, a deception, a fixed false opinion or belief that cannot be shaken by reason; a persistent false belief that is strongly held despite clear evidence that the belief is actually false; a false belief that a person maintains in spite of evidence that proves it untrue.

Now, it's pretty obvious that people who think the world is flat are delusional, right? And those who believe in Santa Clause and The Easter Bunny are equaly delusional, aren't they?

Strangely, The Church held the Earth is Flat and the Earth is Center for a long time - despite Proof to the contrary. Ask Galelio what he thinks of the delusional church people after being subjected to House Arrest for his Proof the Sun was the center of our solar system.

Children are Told Santa and Easter Bunny are real. They believe it even though there is no proof of it. It doesn't matter that all kids believe it, or that there are movies made of Santa, it doesn't change Reality, does it?

Take Yeshua's death. If he was dead - and I mean Truly dead in a physical sense and not Spiritually Dead (ex-communicated) or only Thought to be dead (mistaken death) - then he would have suffered irreversible brain damage after several minutes due to lack of oxygen, a bit more time the lactic acid in his muscles would have formed a gel and he would be in Rigormortis. The bacteria in his body would start to thrive and ingest his body and eat through his gut. Gradually spreading. And all within a couple of days of Death. Making it impossible to Be Alive Again even if theoretically possible as the body is incapable of sustaining any life, other than the bacteria decomposing it. This is reality.

If someone is said to have died and "come back to life" many days later, there are two explanations: 1, the person was NOT really dead to begin with and 2, the story of the event is a fraud. If 1, then the person didn't really die, did they? So any Claims to as much are false. And any belief in the false claim is also a delusion.

A person who believes such a thing without Proof to back it up - and someone else's word is hardly proof, is it? - and who holds onto that belief Despite reason, is rejecting Reason all together and is thus Delusional by definition.

Look at those who Believe the Shroud of Turin is real and not a fake. They Believe despite proof to the contrary. They reject reason in favor of belief. They are delusional.

And whether you Like It or not, they are the Facts of it. So my use of the term Delusional is Factually based and correct and is come-to based on Reason and Reality. And based on this... ANYTHING that does not fit into the deluded person's beliefs is Automatically dismissed as a matter of course, or as something that just cannot be. Hence, if said person has suspended their ability to reason to such an extent, they cannot then be told something that requires their "ability to reason" to be grasped for what it is.

The Scope of this forum is for discussion of anything and everything. Not just what Ken thinks the scope is.

As for Truth. Truth is reality. Outside of reality and reason is Untruth and Mysticism. A person can know "Truths" - whatever is meant by that. But only if they can Reason towards them. Truths cannot be obtained by Neglecting Reason and going by Feeling or Mystic Belief or Hearsay.

Now a sideline: If I say, "I saw Dien turn into a bat, fly down an alley where homeless people were, rematerialise in human form, suck the blood out of one of the homeless, turn back into a bat and fly away" would you...

1: Believe me?
2: Think I was delusional?

Why did you pick the answer you picked? What REASONs did you use? Would you change your answer is I told you one million other people also believe it? Why/Why not?

Now, if you do believe Dien did those things - and Dien, I am just using you as a convenient example we all know, no offense - I will say you are delusional because you believe in something which requires the suspension of reason, is not possible in a reality kind of way. And whether you get upset at my use of the word or not, does Not change the fact of it being a delusion, does it?

Areas are only Sensitive if people feel they have a vested interest in the area. They aren't sensitive to those who do not have such an interest. If something upsets you, I find it is a good thing to pay attention to it and Think about it.

When I first saw V for Vendetta I was uncomfortable and slightly miffed at what I perceived to be Lefty Slant to the story. I Thought about my reaction to the movie and then decided not to think in terms of black and white but to accept the movie and story for what it was. And I quite enjoy the movie - apart from the annoying Natalie Portman.

I viewed "Supersize Me" as an interesting movie. But some on the Far Right saw it as an Attack on Corporate American lead by a lefty. I say, "get over it". Some view the Mel Gibson movie Payback as Entertainment, others think it is Satanic.

I wonder, if Yeshua didn't die as claimed and was merely Thought to have, and if "And he was the word of the lord" and later in ACTS when it says "And the word of the lord was in... and the word of the lord was in..." and thus that means Yeshua was in those places as he was The word of the Lord... I wonder if that would upset you or those who believe he had died? Regardless of your answer can you answer WHY about your answer?

Have you seen the movie Instinct with Anthony Hopkins and Hugo Gooding? There is a Great scene where hopkins has Gooding in a headlock and Ask him what he took away from him. Control? No, because he never had it to begin with. Freedom? No because he never had that either? He took away his illusions.

Remember, nothing is a big deal unless you make it a big deal. If something makes you uncomfortable, ask yourself WHY. You are about to learn something about yourself.

Michael Ross

Mark,

Thanks for your post.

Everyone has an opinion

Correct. Even if it is based on misleading, false or No information. The question is, can you - do you have the ability - to change your opinion in light of new information or thoughts? Or are you (and when I say "you" I mean the generic You, as in everyone) rigid in your opinion clinging to it like grim death?

there is no clear cut answer

Incorrect. There are plenty of clear cut answers. But none for those who refuse to accept them when given.

religious choice and beliefs does not make a person delusional

Incorrect. If the belief is a delusion the person is delusional. To deny such is to deny all reality and would see us willingly accept the most crazy made up things as not delusional. We would accept such insanity as, Bush is really a reptilian shape-shifter who has, on ocassion, shape-shifted into his true reptile form and eaten live babies and done so in the oval office and - Al Gore is being controlled by Aliens who would like the world to enter another ice age so they can flourish.

Michael Ross

Jason,

Thanks for jumping in.

Frankly, I don't care what people believe. All I ask is... if I ask questions about your belief then please answer them without getting heated and please back up what you say.

I've had Many a conversation with the 7th Day Adventists and the Mormons. In All cases THEY reach a point they are unable to answer me any more and leave - never to come back.

I actually have copies of the Old and New testament, Book of Mormon, 7th Day Adventist Bible and their Blue and Red books, Koran, and more. And I've read them all so am quite versed in the many varied Beliefs out there. I see Fundamental Flaws in their Systems - including Bhuddism and Jainism and Hinduism.

As for books, one which was refered to me was by a guy called David Yallop, "In God's Name". I haven't read it.

Michael Ross

[Ankesh]

Thanks Michael.

Words don't just come along with their definitions. They come along with connotations too.

These connotations can either be negative or positive - or even neutral.

Delusion is a word with negative connotation.

Why do parents reprimand children when they use an abusive word? Not because of the words definition. But because of the negative connotations associated with the word.

Terms like "In my opinion" neutralize the connotations - even though they might not add to the meaning of the sentence.

This post is just my humble opinion

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by MichaelRoss

When I first saw V for Vendetta I was uncomfortable and slightly miffed at what I perceived to be Lefty Slant to the story. I Thought about my reaction to the movie and then decided not to think in terms of black and white but to accept the movie and story for what it was. And I quite enjoy the movie - apart from the annoying Natalie Portman.

I have to take exception to this part of your post. How can you not like Natalie Portman? That girl can act!

I loved V for Vendetta.

Ev asks V: Who are you?

V replies: Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you, and you may call me V.

Ev replies: Are you like a crazy person?

Just a side note: V's words have the correct definitions. Yet, he doesn't get his intended meaning across...

Originally Posted by Lawrence

You talk about the human mind and subconcsious and that is the "Secret".

The subconscious mind is a conduit to attract anything you have dominant thoughts about.

That's where we disagree.

I don't like the use of the word "attract" because I don't believe that we "attract" anything to us.

The mind is powerful and if you know how to program it, it can give you anything WITHIN YOUR CONTROL but absolutely nothing outside of your control.

The mind will make us seek things that it is seeing at an unconsious level but it doesn't attract anything to us by some sort of similar universal vibration.

That's just silly IMO.

Originally Posted by Lawrence

It's how you frame your thoughts and put your order out to the universe.

Yeah, that - LOL

Again, it has nothing to do with "the universe" or anything external from yourself.

All of that is totally out of our control.

If you want to "place an order" and you understand how to do that, then great. But understand that what you are doing with "the secret" methods is simply programming your subconsious mind and placing that order with the consious mind, not with the universe.

The subconsious is 100 times more powerful than the consious mind and it controls everything we do.

Now, if you want some real interesting (factual) learning, study how the brain works and learn about Alpha, Beta, and Theta brainwaves and how they work, what they control, and the differences in them.

Read up on the minds of Einstein and DaVinci and understand how they worked and how yours can work the same way by increasing the Theta brainwaves in yourself.

At extreme levels of Theta frequencies in the brain, the consious mind can be totally in alignment with the unconsious and total clairty of thought and understanding can be achieved.

It's a powerful place.

Get there if you can :-)

Jim

Do you have the ability to see things . . . objects . . . at a distance?

Probably yes, huh?

However, the truth is, what you are actually "seeing" (perceiving) are high speed vibrations right there in your own space. Those vibrations came into your space via light waves . . . vibrations that travel across spaces.

So, if we go strictly by the truth, we'd have to say that people who believe they can see objects at a distance are delusional.

If they were totally rational and honest about it, they'd have to admit that they are actually perceiving vibrations in their own space and that they never really see anything at a distance. However, they might strongly profess that they DO see things happening at a distance. In this case, us strictly rational types would know that that this is part of their belief system, and that they are actually delusional.

Besides that, to be truly rational about it, they'd have to admit that they never really see ANYTHING happen in the present time, or "now". That's because by the time light or any other kind of waves arrive in their space, delivering data to them about what's happening "right now" over there, it's already happened.

In other words, you only get data about an event AFTER it's over. (Easy to accept when we're talking about a beam of light from a star . . . light vibrations that took millions or billions of years to arrive here at our planet's surface. But even if it's only a fraction of a nanosecond, the TRUTH is that even though you may believe that you saw that apple hit the ground, it's "old data" and you actually didn't see that apple hit the ground. You only got data about it, via light waves, AFTER it happened.)

So you see, all those people out there . . . maybe even you . . . who believe that they are seeing things happening "now" are actually delusional.

But you know what? Just about all of my friends are delulsional. And even though I know the truth about them, I STILL like them! (And I usually don't tell them what I know about them.)

And, I'll freely admit, I've been known to be delusional myself on many an occasion. Makes for a good game. Much easier to enjoy the party when you go along with the game everyone else is playing even though you know it's delusional. Sometimes it's even fun!

---- Hugh (smiling)

The only thing I will say about religion and the Christian religion many of the aposples died because of the believe and they were their. Does that mean anything I am not smart enought to know for sure. I know my limites.

But I can prove we are what we think about. I studied some serial killers and was all they thought about.

Dan S. Kennedy in one of his books tells of a judge he kept on thinking of doing little girls. He finally just did it. It ruined his career and life when he got caught.

The bible, the old testiment has the secret in their It has the thought we are what we think . It is hard to believe that secret is that old. Why do we call it a secret because most don't know it. It is a too bad. But that is life.