Comments on RJ's playboy club get together?

Sandi,

Originally Posted by Sandi Bowman

I just received an email from John Reese wherein he explains more about how he got involved, what he knew and, more importantly, what he didn't know at the time he sent the email and so on.

Basically he took full responsibility for the fact that he sent the email and promoted the 'marketing event'. Apologized profusely to not only the folks on his list but, especially to the women marketers who were 'excluded' and so on.

The newsletter/apology was eye-opening in many ways. Thought you'd like to know that he will be going to the event simply because he gave his word to be there and several folks are anticipating meeting him there etc.

I have read this thread with much interest and noted all the outrage from the female posters. But I got to say. Word or no word John should not go.

Admitting quilt, but then going makes John no better than the individuals putting on the party. His apology is a veil and an attempt to keep his subscribers, but still participate.

He should be like other businesses that learn of something that might soil their image and back out. Some have cancelled multi-million dollar contracts, I.E. Pepsi & Michael Jackson.

Compromise is what brings good businesses down as well as it's owner(s). I'd have more respect for any person if they had a conviction about something and stuck to it.

If it's wrong then it's wrong. But now you are giving him a pass. What does that say to the other women who have stood beside your outrage? When did it stop being wrong and bringing down what women have struggled to get away from?

It's like saying, "I'm sorry I took your wallet and used your credit card. I don't know what I was thinking, please forgive me, but since I have your credit card I'm going to continue using it."

The reason John is going has nothing to do with keeping his word. It's about taking his business to the next level. Us men have a way of telling you what you want to hear and saying it in a way that makes you now think it's ok.

The reason I hate this whole matter is remembering what my mother went through during the 60's in Los Angeles, being a single mother and trying to compete in a man's world.

So all the outrage was for nought.

Woody Quiñones
The Promotional Guy

Woody, I have to agree with you to a point. I didn't, and don't, think I did anything wrong in forgiving someone who offers up a sincere apology, an explanation for his actions and planned actions that makes sense to any marketer who didn't want to disappoint their customers (who purchased their tickets through him, incidentally, so they could meet him) after giving his word to meet them at a certain destination.

The only thing that influences this as being different from any other customer service effort is the location of the meeting. The rest of the scenario really has little to do with that basic customer service function.

Personally, I would've preferred to see John totally refuse to stay involved in the scenario by offering to meet his customers elsewhere instead, but I am not in a position to enforce my views on him, nor should I be. He is a human being, an adult, and capable of making his own choices just as I make mine. I'm sure any thinking adult can take any decision to continue participation in something so outrageously sexist into account in their own future decisions with or without apologies and explanations. We simply have more information with which to make our own personal decisions now.

I'm sorry your mother had glass ceiling problems and male-dominated barriers like my mom did. I have so much glass embedded in my head from frequently hitting that ceiling myself that my brains are probably visible through it.

The bottom line is that the outrage remains with me and others who support similar views. I have been accused of being too harsh and too out-spoken oftentimes so I tried to moderate my response...and I find myself in the uncomfortable position of STILL having to defend myself to a man. Let's face it, a woman in a man's world just can't win sometimes. Sigh.

Unless one or the other side reaches out in an attempt to change things, nothing will change. I reached out, got a response (albeit not totally the one I would've preferred) and that was a step forward in a very real sense. I don't see that as defeat after fighting some 50+ years for the chance to even state my opinions without severe repercussions. Call it one small step for womankind in that our objections were acknowledged and resulted in some changes.

Disagree with your 'compromise is what brings many businesses down etc...' comment. Compromise, one result of negotiation, is the basis upon which successful businesses work. Without negotiation, parties would never meet in the middle and accomplish anything together. Compromise is simply the means used to get them to a common meeting ground.

As in any negotiation, the compromise must be in line with one's ultimate objectives. One compromise does not necessarily destroy the entire process unless it is so basic as to make any further negotiations invalid for one party or the other. Any sincere negotiator comes to the table with 'bargaining chips' that are expendable in the interests of the greater good to be accomplished at that time.

"A step at a time and the world is mine" is one of my favorite excerpts from a piece I wrote years ago. The fact that many men, as well as women, joined the protest over the blatant sexism, is a testament to the fact that things are changing...however slowly.

Sandi Bowman

I don't think Felix is going to suffer one bit from the blow back that occurred. He received far more attention and reach from the manufactured controversy than he lost by offending people. And this is far from over...

Like the Energizer Bunny it keeps going and going. John Reese's email just threw more gas onto the fire, despite the fact it was an apology. One idiot I know, thinks that the apology was manufactured to bring more attention to the event! Case in point: we are once again pulling this thread up from the depths of SowPub in order to discuss the latest piece of RJ news.

And what will happen after the event?

Pictures will surface.

Details will emerge.

Once again we will drag this thread up.

Are there any more lessons to be learned? I don't think so.

1. Don't disrespect people.
2. Apologize QUICKLY and sincerely.


Aloha,

Jason Cain

Jason, thanks for your comments.

I think if you look back through the history of controversial themes, you'll find that, tho' they may take time to manifest, they almost invariably DO backfire on the perpetrators.

The usual pattern I've observed is: hush-hush and ignore the problem and it just might go away (not usually...it usually intensifies when not met with resistance...like slavery, for example, and other civil rights fights later).

Women ignored the ill-treatment and inequities for years until some started to challenge the status quo. The uproar led to changes...and still is leading to modifications over all.

It's an unfortunate by-product that the perps get media coverage in the process...but they also have the light focused on their misdeeds as well...and this, plus the stimulated reactions of the incensed and victims, results in their defeat ultimately.

Rj is a flash in the pan...when the sunlight disappears so will the flash...unless we remove the pan first! This is one reason why I would've preferred to see those who have a genuine change of heart follow through with action as well as words.

Sandi Bowman

Sandi,

Thanks for mentioning The Apology.

That Apology is a bill of goods, plain and simple.

Here's why...

1: He didn't like the way the company that was putting it on did marketing - but he still decided to market it.

2: He figured by promoting it he'd be Endorsing Pornography in the eyes of the reader - and he did it anyway.

3: As soon as he'd sent out the promotion his office started getting ANGRY phone calls and emails - but he waited two weeks to send an Apology/Retraction, by which time the event was sold out.

4: He claims, as far as he knew the sales letter was NOT online when he sent out his promotion. So this Experienced Marketer expects us to believe that he knowingly sent a message promoting an event thinking that when you clicked the link you'd get a Come Back Soon page? That's the Lamest excuse I've ever heard and just follows the old "I didn't know" chestnut.

5: He says he thought if he explained he didn't condone the offensive marketing people would understand. If he'd not seen the marketing as he Claims, why would he feel a need to tell people he didn't condone the offensive marketing?

6: The worst part he claims, is how the marketing was damaging to the women in the industry. But look at this thread as an example - see all the men put off by it? This section of his email is just to garner favor with the plethora of women he knows he P'ed Off.

7: He uses the "consider his past good actions before condemning him" ploy used by lawyers in a defense trial - never done anything like this before, blah blah blah. The longer his apology goes on the more Desperate he comes across as wanting to be believed. But [I'll add my Buts further on]

8: He reckons no-one made any Direct Commission from the promotion - they just got a free ticket to the event. I note the Careful choice of words of Direct Commission because it excludes Indirect Commission. If he was So strong about this I'd expect something more along the lines of - I made no commission from this event whatsoever in any way, shape or form.

9: Then he lists a bunch charities he has helped support in the past. Now he's trying to Buy a Good Guy Badge as if to say, see I'm a Good Guy because I support charities and did something good once. This tactic is an Immediate Turn Off to me for the obviousness of it.

10: Then tries to legitimize the charity of the event and prove it's all kosher because the charity is real. Every couple of weeks there's a new Charity with a Kiosk in my local shopping center. I've never heard of any of these charities that set up - even though they are a Registered Charity. I can register a business name for $100, that doesn't make me genuine, or what I say I do for business. Just more trying to get us to Buy It.

11: After all his filibustering he then admits to still going to the event because: he wants to see the mansion and he claims others are going because he said he would. And still tries to justify it by saying what goes on at the mansion is all blown out of proportion.

12: He then tries to downplay the Mansion and his going to it - even though he disagrees with the event and everything the mansion Stands for - by comparing this to Sony's sponsoring of American Idol (which he supports) while also promoting offensive rappers (which he does not support).

At this point, the more he tries to justify going the more integrity he loses.

13: The second last hoorah... he is Still Attending because he Gave His Word. His Actions define him. He talked a good talk but when all is said and done, he is changing - DOing - nothing different. No different than the alcoholic who SAYS they are giving up and are sorry for the Crap they put everyone through, who then does nothing to get off the booze and keeps on doing the same things. Or the smoker who apologizes for smoking next to you and continues to smoke next to you.

14: The final word - remove yourself from my list if you don't believe. Code for - because I obviously won't sell to you any more because you won't buy my BS.

Different people might have differing opinions in what is needed in an apology - a genuine apology. But all genuine ones have something in common...

1: They are QUICK in coming. As soon as the person discovers they've done something they are Truly sorry about, they apologize. They do not wait Two Weeks for any reason.

2: They follow their words with ACTION. This shows their sincerity and their integrity. They do not tell you they are sorry and then tell you they will Still do the thing they are apologizing for. Their Actions show their sincerity and integrity, or lack of the same.

What John SHOULD have done if he were Truly Sorry was say so Right Away - and - offer to hold his own Private Meeting with those who want to meet with him and to do so for Free. He says people were going just to meet with him, so he can hold his own private meeting for a few hours in the function room of a nearby motel - even a darn Scout Hall. He would then NOT attend the event.

THAT would show he Honors his Meeting Obligations while also shows his True Denouncing of the event.

Or, do what the other Large companies do when they find out something unsavory - cancel right on the spot, tell why briefly and be done with it.

By taking two weeks to pipe up and by still attending, his Actions show he is not truly sorry at all and by apologizing he is just trying to sell you a bill of goods and have his cake and eat it to.

I'm sure he does wish he'd never done it - for the abuse and loss of sales he suffered as well as the abuse his Name suffered in the incestuous Internet Marketing sheep pen. So that is true when he says that, but that's as far as it goes.

I don't expect the man to crawl over broken glass. But if you are sorry, for real, then your actions follow your words.

His apology reminds me of Ayn Rand's book The Fountainhead. Where the boss of the newspaper would hire Socialists to write on the wonders of Capitalism. He did it to prove that people had no integrity and would Sell Out if the price was right.

By going to an event he denounces and continuing to have anything to do with a company who he claims to abhor, he is showing a Complete and Utter lack of integrity and that his words are Hollow. And his Apology has made it all the more worse for him.

John Reese, your hollow apology is not accepted. You either have the strength of your convictions or you don't. And you do not. And oh... I did Unsubscribe.

Michael Ross

Hi, Michael,

I'm not going to refute your stance since I do respect and, to a certain extent, agree with you on most of your post.

Now, to understand why I forgave him. It was not to free him and give him a PASS...it was to free ME. You see, forgiveness is the way to free yourself of the power others hold over you. In forgiving others, you take back the power they took from you and reclaim it for yourself. I just simply chose not to remain in anger, disappointment, and disgust...and I did it for me. That is a healthy thing, just as my initial reaction was a healthy expression at the time. To hold on to the negatives is not progressive or life-affirming. It just builds tension and more negatives into one's life.

One can be outraged and fight for what one believes in without holding on to anger and other negative emotions. I know because I've done it...yet again... when I started this thread. It gives one an entirely different perspective on things even tho' it's often misunderstood by some others. Their problem, not mine.

Sandi Bowman

Sandi,

Thanks for explaining.

Whatever works For You is right.

For you it is to Forgive. For others it is simply to Let Go of the Hate/Anger/Outrage. For others, it is Not to go there in the first place and approach it from the get go with a "So What" or "Who Cares" attitude - my preferred MO.

I'll give a comment when asked, as this was the case with your initial posting. Otherwise, I'm like, "Look at this idiot. Next" and I've moved on.

It's why I posted to Mark about "Feeling The Outrage". It's my own private little joke that started years ago when some people I know were getting all Outraged at a journalist with a column. They'd go out of their way to read this guy's stuff and then get outraged and upset about it - weekly.

My take would have been to simply not bother reading the guy's stuff after the first time. But it seemed these people liked getting outraged.

If you don't like what is posted on the DU, don't go there. If you don't like what's posted in FR, don't go there. Simple stuff.

If you don't like the way a marketer emails to you, delete and unsubscribe and move on. No need to make a federal case of it. That's how I think about it and why I wonder why you sometimes post about your outrage - but that's what works For You and that's fine too.

Michael Ross