Anti Zorro... I like that.. that and conversations I can sink my teeth into. : )

Hi Gordon!

> As usual you leave a lot to ponder.

*g* Nature of the beast.

> First the tire kickers and your response (my
> editing for readability) :

> "A lot of other people"...I'm
> going to assume are the Guru's.

Exactly. That way, when Tony or Margie or any one
of the people I refer to say the program doesn't work, the self proclaimed pundit can pass them off as tire kickers. Tell them that if it doesn't work it's because they're not applying it - or not doing it right. Bull pucky. *g*

> Maybe fewer on-line than off.

You make a good point. You see, when I shop, I'm a tire kicker. At least all the stores I didn't buy from might think so. I'll go in - ask the questions - be hedgy and non-committal. That doesn't mean I'm not interested. It means I haven't decided who I'm going to buy from.

I think the number of "real" tire kickers are much lower online.

> I think I lumped all the
> "gamblers" together...and I
> certainly didn't mean to imply it was a
> majority of people. But the real tire
> kickers are the gamblers, those who DO look
> for the magic answer.

Yes, there are a few of those. I've run into the odd one. I tell them that if they really think they can watch tv and let a business run itself, they'd probably be better off sticking with their day job and buying lottery tickets. Perhaps a little more tactfully. *laughing*

> I'll tell you the problem Linda, MOST and I
> do mean majority in this instance, don't
> know what their DREAMS are, so all the
> proper direction/instruction in the world is
> putting the cart before the horse.

I agree wholeheartedly. Initially that was my biggest battle.

I have since found a question that helps people decide what it is that they really "do" want to do.

If I'm talking to a married man, I ask him what he talks about so much that his wife is sick of hearing it, but listens because she loves him.
If I'm talking to a woman - I reverse the question.

People usually do a double take. Then they ask me what on earth that has to do with business.

I tell them that it has everything and nothing to do with business. Yet.

I tell them that quite simply, if they don't have passion for their business, they are in the wrong business. When you have no passion for what you do, you're already on your way to misery and depression.

When you love what you do, it hardly seems like work. So, (I tell them) the idea is to find out what is your passion and then create a business out of it.

I usually get long pauses... and replies like
Well, I wanted a marketing site - but when you put it that way, maybe what I should be doing is... "

I've even had one guy ask if it was okay to talk this over with his wife first. He wanted to see what SHE would say and see if it matched what he thought she would say. *g*

> And I would contend and probably belabor the
> point that knowing NOTHING includes not
> knowing what they want either. If you are
> speaking of those that KNOW they want to
> build an online business as opposed to
> those who want to make money on-line, I'd
> agree. But the two are very different types.

As above... I do agree. They start out knowing nothing - including what their dream is. I help them discover that. When I run across a person that tells me they don't think you need to feel passionate about your work (I've had a few of those) I simply tell them that if they really don't think they need to have passion for what they do and sell, that they would be best off working with someone else instead of me.

I do believe passion is necessary. I expect it, I fuel it and I feed it. And I won't do without it.

Truthfully, Gordon, the biggest obstacle I have found is when people have bought into some of the suckiest programs.

I have actually turned away business and told people that I would rather do without their money before I will build them a website like "so and so marketer's" website. No can do. No way. I will not put my name on that kind of website.

> I'm sure there are many more than that. But
> those three you speak of are perhaps?
> POPULAR programs too?

Oh, of course! *laughing* And yes, you are right, there are more than three. But there are three big ones.

> OK. .... "what works based on the
> individual and what their interests
> are." Now then. First, I certainly
> didn't mean to disparage anyone, and I
> concede that might have happened by lumping
> the looky-loos in with the gamblers.

*laughing* Nice thing about being human is that we are not perfect, nor do we expect anyone else to be. Good conversation has room for leeways.
: )

> From day one that I came on-line I have
> fought the MYTHS spouted by the ANTI-ZORRO'.
> OH, I guess I should give my definition of
> the AZ.
>The ANTI-ZORRO looks like Zorro. Smooth.
> Suave. Funny. Charming even. Friendly, quick
> witted... seemingly thoughtful.

> While they steal from the poor, the rich,
> the middle-class and KEEP it for themselves.

I LIKE that! *grinning* Truly, I do.

And these "anti-zorros" use the little tricks like making small "references" to their wealth.
The sportscar they aren't driving right at that moment so they can be typing this letter to you.
(Nevermind the fact that the letter is three years old at least.) *laughing*

Do you know what I like to ask people when they extol the virtues of the gurus? I ask them
"Why do you keep telling me how much money so and so has made with that program? Why don't you tell me how much it has made for YOU?" They get really quiet then. Then I push on, and say "My clients are saying how much their profit has gone up. Their profit - not mine." That's usually when I either win them - or walk away.

> So the Anti-Zorros (and there are many of
> them) make people think (through the use of
> MAGIC...that combination of electric words
> and magnetic people drawn to what sounds so
> good)
> that they have THE answer.

> And why do they, the AZ's, do it that way?
> BECAUSE IT WORKS.
> It sells stuff. It sells programs. It makes
> the ANTI-ZORRO money.

Yes. It works for THEM. There has never been a rule that said making money and teaching other people to make money were synonamous. Just because the AZ's can make money, doesn't mean that the people who buy their programs are making money.

Here's a funny story. Somehow, I think you'll enjoy this one. *g*

It had been one of those weeks. Every other person I talked to was hot about an AZ program.
But none of them were making any money. They wanted to know if I could show them how to use the program properly- because of course it said that if it's not working, you're not applying it.

Finally, in frustration, I went to a public forum. I posted a message saying Please... anyone making money with this program, raise your hand. Give me a sign to say it works, because I can't find a blessed soul that it's working for.

The moderators had that post removed in less than 20 minutes. So I posted it at another forum. And got a flood of people saying... "Wow, I thought it was just me... I'm dumping it."

The moderator of the second forum left the post up... and hasn't spoken to me since, nor replied to direct posts posted to the moderator.

I guess they don't like me rattling cages??
*laughing*

> people become prey for the Anti Zorro's of
> the world, net and real world too.

> And all the training, MODELING, closely
> guarded secrets, inside information, AMAZING
> formulas, are just so much fodder for the
> Anti Zorros to foist upon people UNTIL...
> they know what they want.

The sad part, Gordon, is that even people who know what their dreams are get sucked in. Prime example, and I may have mentioned this sometime in the past.

I had a lady come to me. She KNEW her dream inside out and sideways. She'd had a little baby that was severely allergic to so many things it was a nightmare. Cottom being one of them. The poor little thing was RAW from diapers. Fabric or disposable. So the Mom created a non-allergenic diaper. Created, tried and tested for her own baby, who wore the diapers with ease. So the mom passed the word among the other moms that she'd been talking with online about allergies. And got people wanting them.

Then some good soul told her she should get a website and sell her diapers online. Suddenly she was seized with the idea that SHE could be the one to ease the suffering of so many moms out there who had allergy ridden babies. She was excited. Passionate.

Not knowing anything about online business, the Mom did some research. Found one of the Anti-Zorros....

She wanted a multi-page sales letter. No pictures of the diapers- that would 'ruin' the site. No prices or information up front, of course. No, no... we had to reel them in like the fishies they are, you know. (pardon the sarcasm) Don't give away the price too soon. Gotta sell them first.

No, no, no, I told her. Any mom that has gone through what YOU did doesn't need to be sold. She wants to see the diaper. She wants to know the price. She wants to know what it's made of. She wants to see little babies wearing your diapers. She wants to hear other moms say "Thank God, a diaper my baby can wear."

I told her there is NO "one size fits all" when it comes to business strategy. Period.

But nope. She KNEW what would work. The guru said so and if she did it different, she would fail. The program said so.

Needless to say I didn't take the job.

So, for me, the hardest part is undoing the brainwashing.

> Linda, I admire you for creating a program I
> have no doubts will be successful.

Thanks Gordon! : )

> But I doubt if they are the majority of
> people on-line. I reserve the right to be
> wrong, I was once back in the 70's ya know?
> So I may be wrong again...

*laughing* Gotta love that attitude. Nope, the majority probably don't really know and need a little direction. Bring me any one of them and I will help them discover their dream inside of an hour. It's what I do well.

From there, it's teaching them how to make it happen. It's SO, SO much more than slapping up a lame website that doesn't even have a strategy to fuel it. That's what I'm working on...

> When I showed people in the Remote Hypnosis
> forum a site I helped develop that did NOT
> have a shopping cart, you'd have thought
> that I had broken one of the ten
> commandments of Internet marketing...BUT, it
> was right for the client's business, who
> knew his business and what his customers
> wanted.

*laughing* I know what you mean. I've created some of those myself. What gets the job done is what counts.

> I think there are many good step by step
> programs run by decent people, but if it
> doesn't MATCH or suit the person taking the
> steps, it ain't gonna work.

There may be. I don't personally know of any.
For example, the sheer volume of people that pump out glorified advertisements and call them articles tells me that they have not learned the different between advertorial copywriting and journalistic copywriting. Nor the different between advertising and promoting.

The sheer volumes of people that think targetting their customers is deciding who they want to sell to instead of who needs what they have tells me they don't understand very basic marketing techniques.

I won't go on, but if there are programs that teach the basics, either not too many people took those programs, or I just don't seem to run across them too often. *g* I am SURE you know exactly what I mean.

> So, if those people you share your knowledge
> with are prequalified, and really want to do
> BUSINESS on-line, it will be a winner for
> all involved.

That's what I'm hoping Gordon, I do like win-win situations.

> I've fought hype and hyperbole for years,
> but it SELLS stuff.

Yes, it does. There IS, however, one thing that sells even better than hype. Honesty. It stands the test of time much better. Of course, the AZ's will probably disagree with me, but it's served me well for 20 years. *g*

> I held your position, that MOST people are
> good and decent and will put forth the
> effort.
> Where I went wrong was in ASSUMING they
> wanted to. That they KNEW going in that
> there was WORK to do, that there are no free
> lunches.
> And what I learned the hard way, is...
> my good intentions were the stones used by
> those that I was helping, to give me my
> 'lottery' winnings.

I hear what you're saying. You know what I think, Gordon? (and I could be wrong, but my gut feeling says it feels right) I think it's not so much that you were wrong to assume people "wanted" to. I really think that people can have the "want." They can know, somewhere deep inside them, that there is no free lunch.
I also think we all have a comfort zone and a fear zone - and we don't want to tread the boundaries of either. Tread on that fear zone, or make them feel uncomfortable or out of their element and they backpedal. Fast. And throw stones at the person who pushed their boundaries, you know?

It boils down to addressing and improving their AQ before you even tread on new ways to do business.

This is a relatively new part of my coaching, prompted by an experience I had with a client that grew too fast and couldn't cope. Folded.
That was a lesson I will never forget. Or repeat.

> Good luck Linda with your new project, I
> can't wait, I'm sure it will be great.

Thanks Gordon. And thank YOU - I truly do enjoy a conversation that I can sink my teeth into. I can usually find that here!

Linda




Website design... with a difference. (my sites work)

Linda --

This is exactly what irks me about this forum - so much to comment on that's relevant that I don't have enough time to get to it all!

[side note to Gordon - when you get rolling it's almost overwhelming the amount of good info that comes out of you.]

> pass them off as tire kickers. Tell them
> that if it doesn't work it's because they're
> not applying it - or not doing it right.
> Bull pucky. *g*

Sounds like most of the MLM companies I've been around.

> You make a good point. You see, when I shop,
> I'm a tire kicker. At least all the stores I
> didn't buy from might think so. I'll go in -
> ask the questions - be hedgy and
> non-committal. That doesn't mean I'm not
> interested. It means I haven't decided who
> I'm going to buy from.

> I think the number of "real" tire
> kickers are much lower online.

First let me state that when I say off-line I generally mean retail type sales and on-line referring to storefronts.

I think it's the other way around - more online than offline. Tire kickers in that it's easier to find the info where in the offline world they often have to get up to go out. I'm defining the people who actually come by a site versus those who come by and then later contact. From the number of people who initiate private contact I do think the number is lower.

Unfortunately it's not as easy to weed them out online as off-line. Offline I've got body language, I've got their words, I see what they look at, etc. Online I still have their words but typed emails don't carry the same degree of "automatic talking" that I get off line. I mean offline I say "Can I help you?" and you say "Just looking" before I get the sentence out. (Which is exactly why you don't ask that - you want a better answer.) With email exchanges much of that disappears. Makes it more difficult to read between the lines. Plus there is the issue of how well a person can express themselves in email.

> I have since found a question that helps
> people decide what it is that they really
> "do" want to do.

> If I'm talking to a married man, I ask him
> what he talks about so much that his wife is
> sick of hearing it, but listens because she
> loves him.
> If I'm talking to a woman - I reverse the
> question.

I really like your question - will have to write it down. If you don't mind how do you deal with the situation of the person becoming quite burned out on their topic after it becomes a business - and the fun goes out of it? That's happened to me with my hobbies when they became my business. Specifically sleight-of-hand. Just curios in that regard. Basically when it went from what they "like to do" to what they "have to do". Pick this up offline if you wish I'm just curious. After it happened to me - several times - I became leary of pointing people toward the passionate areas of their lives as a business.

> I've even had one guy ask if it was okay to
> talk this over with his wife first. He
> wanted to see what SHE would say and see if
> it matched what he thought she would say.
> *g*

This sounds like a wise man!

> (Nevermind the fact that the letter is three
> years old at least.) *laughing*

But the date on that letter isn't three years old - you're not suggesting that they are *fudging* are you?!

> Yes. It works for THEM. There has never been
> a rule that said making money and teaching
> other people to make money were synonamous.

Doing and teaching - two different things entirely. Rare is the person who can do both.

> No, no, no, I told her. Any mom that has
> gone through what YOU did doesn't need to be
> sold. She wants to see the diaper. She wants
> to know the price. She wants to know what
> it's made of. She wants to see little babies
> wearing your diapers. She wants to hear
> other moms say "Thank God, a diaper my
> baby can wear."

What she wasn't seeing is that the process is all still there - it's just that the person interested in her product had already had their hot buttons pushed -- by experiencing the problem. So the steps are the same it's just how they are applied. (I know you know this but I'm pointing out for those who may miss this very important lesson.) It's the process of taking a formula or principle and applying it to your present situation.

The long sales letters have their place. Short ones do too. When I sold waterbeds we had quick sales - new mattress to the guy who had a hole, and long sales - the gal getting a new bedroom suite from her husband or the person who knew nothing about waterbeds. The steps are all there but sometimes circumstances do much of the "selling" for you. For instance I love a waterbed since my feet don't hang off the end. My wife doesn't relate to the problem.

I've thought about doing a series of tapes called - "What I learned about .... from ..." Such as "What I learned about business from an 19th century Card Shark". Or "What I learned about business from a traveling Evangelist who thought I was a Witch - and what the real Witches thought about it!" But that's on the back burner for the moment. Those are topics I can speak about.

Which brings up the principle of "everything affects everything else." It's a point Jim Rohn makes when talking about habits and he's right. But expanding from habits until you get people thinking of their life as whole then it's not just an abstract thing - this business they have. If "Making a little money" becomes the goal - they aren't building a life they can enjoy. It's isoldated from their life. It traps them more.

> I told her there is NO "one size fits
> all" when it comes to business
> strategy. Period.

Thank goodness for that! How boring would it be?!

> From there, it's teaching them how to make
> it happen. It's SO, SO much more than
> slapping up a lame website that doesn't even
> have a strategy to fuel it. That's what I'm
> working on...

I am so depressed now - I thought that was all there was too it....

> I also think we all have a comfort zone and
> a fear zone - and we don't want to tread the
> boundaries of either. Tread on that fear
> zone, or make them feel uncomfortable or out
> of their element and they backpedal. Fast.

Here's another area where online/offline are so different. Offline I can push a bit, I can toe the line so to speak and ease off when the time comes, monitor reactions, etc. Online it's hard - plus the delay means you can't count on emotions remaining remaining constant between emails, etc. I've found it a big change for me over the years.

> It boils down to addressing and improving
> their AQ before you even tread on new ways
> to do business.

I missed what AQ is.

> This is a relatively new part of my
> coaching, prompted by an experience I had
> with a client that grew too fast and
> couldn't cope. Folded.
> That was a lesson I will never forget. Or
> repeat.

This can be a big problem. It's difficult to work with ahead of time. Most people have a hard enough time seeing themselves successful - much less overly successful.

Thank you Linda!

-- Dan Butler
The Naked PC

Hi Dan!

> This is exactly what irks me about this
> forum - so much to comment on that's
> relevant that I don't have enough time to
> get to it all!

*grinning* I know the feeling. I have to stay up late or get up early to squeak the time in.

> Unfortunately it's not as easy to weed them
> out online as off-line. Offline I've got
> body language, I've got their words, I see
> what they look at, etc. Online I still have
> their words but typed emails don't carry the
> same degree of "automatic talking"
> that I get off line. I mean offline I say
> "Can I help you?" and you say
> "Just looking" before I get the
> sentence out. (Which is exactly why you
> don't ask that - you want a better answer.)
> With email exchanges much of that
> disappears. Makes it more difficult to read
> between the lines. Plus there is the issue
> of how well a person can express themselves
> in email.

I agree. Some people do really well with email exchanges. Others just don't. For those that don't come across well in email, I suggest making a phone call. Sometimes just having the voice contact can make the difference. : )

The "face to face" isn't there, but the power of the voice is still greater than just email is the written word is not a person's strong point.

> I really like your question - will have to
> write it down. If you don't mind how do you
> deal with the situation of the person
> becoming quite burned out on their topic
> after it becomes a business - and the fun
> goes out of it? That's happened to me with
> my hobbies when they became my business.
> Specifically sleight-of-hand. Just curios in
> that regard. Basically when it went from
> what they "like to do" to what
> they "have to do". Pick this up
> offline if you wish I'm just curious. After
> it happened to me - several times - I became
> leary of pointing people toward the
> passionate areas of their lives as a
> business.

I really DO know what you mean. For me, I diversify. I really love anything to do with writing and graphics. Those are my passions.

When I was a kid, I drew pictures in the margins of my notebooks. My teachers used to reprimand me and tell me to mind my work because no one was going to pay me to draw pictures when I grew up. *laughing*

When I wasn't drawing pictures, I was writing stories and poems on any piece of paper I could find. By 12, I was collecting quotes from great literary works.

I have prevented burnout by taking a zigging here and zagging there. 20 years ago, I was writing adcopy. After 7 years of that, I moved on to poster and sign layout. After that, it was graphic design for several years. In between the longer stints, I have taught art classes, trained people to write copy, etc.

Now, it's website design, graphics and copywriting. I also do a little ghostwriting. My job is SO varied now that one day I can be creating graphics for a tshirt and the next day it's a website again, and the next week it's writing an article series for a client.

The point being, be inventive - find different ways to work with what you love.

For example... with sleigh of hand. I don't know a lot about it, except that it's fascinating.

Instead of "doing", could you teach? Could you put together a book about fantastic sleigh of hand artists through time? Could you sell the tools of the trade via a website? Could you assemble sleigh of hand artists around the globe and promote their talents in exchange for a percentage of each job booked through your site?
I may be right out of the ballpark, but I think you see what I'm getting at. There is always more than one way to stay where your heart is without getting bored out of your tree. : )

> This sounds like a wise man! But the date
> on that letter isn't three years old -
> you're not suggesting that they are
> *fudging* are you?! Doing and teaching -
> two different things entirely. Rare is the
> person who can do both.

Yes, I think he is a wise man to ask his wife.
*g*

Suggesting that an anti-zorro may be less than honest in order to make a sale? Heaven forbid!! *laughing*

And yes, you're also right that doing and teaching are two different things, and rare is the person that can do both. It sometimes irks me that my consulting clients go on to make more money than I do. It doesn't really bother me much, though, because I'm proud that they learn so well. Perhaps I should be teaching more and doing less? Food for thought. Peter always tells me I don't charge nearly enough for what I give. Perhaps if my training course goes over well, I may do less design. Who knows. Time will tell, it usually does. : )

> The long sales letters have their place.
> Short ones do too. When I sold waterbeds...

Yes, long sales letters have their place. On a piece of paper in someone's hand. NOT on a website.

I know a lot of people will be quick to disagree... but I never open my mouth without making sure I have facts to back up what I say. *grinning* So, here's the fact.

ZDNet Labs just did some testing in conjunction with an eyetracking firm. They actually strapped gear onto people's heads to see how they read online. Guess what they found. They weren't reading long copy. They scanned it. They read bulleted points and the first two or three lines in any paragraph. And moved on to the next section.

Do you know when people DO read long copy online?
When they want help, specs, more information, etc.

But not on the first page of a website. : )

Which is what I've been saying all along. As has Jakob Neilson (internet useability reports)

Side note... I'm just finishing up a new ebook called "Special Report: Website Useability" It will be on my website by the weekend. I'll leave a link to it here, too, if you want to see it.

>I've thought about doing a series
> of tapes called - "What I learned about
> .... from ..." Such as "What I
> learned about business from an 19th century
> Card Shark". Or "What I learned
> about business from a traveling Evangelist
> who thought I was a Witch - and what the
> real Witches thought about it!" But
> that's on the back burner for the moment.
> Those are topics I can speak about.

I can relate.

> Which brings up the principle of
> "everything affects everything
> else." It's a point Jim Rohn makes when
> talking about habits and he's right. But
> expanding from habits until you get people
> thinking of their life as whole then it's
> not just an abstract thing - this business
> they have. If "Making a little
> money" becomes the goal - they aren't
> building a life they can enjoy. It's
> isoldated from their life. It traps them
> more.

I agree. If making money is a person's goal, I would highly recommend that they get a book on coping with depression. They're going to need it sooner or later. The way I figure it, I don't know what day my time to leave this world will come. I want to know that when that day comes, I have not spent my time just chasing money and marking time. Everything I do matters. It matters because everything I do is for people and with people. People like my family and friends, and like you and Gordon and Dien and the rest of the group here that adds a smile to my day here and there.

If you can take something you like to do, and find a way to do that thing so that it helps someone else, the money will take care of itself.

> I am so depressed now - I thought that was
> all there was too it....

I am going to assume that you have the same offbeat sense of humor that I do. If not, and you really do think that putting up a site is "all there is to it" let me know and I'll
do better with an answer.

> Here's another area where online/offline are
> so different. Offline I can push a bit, I
> can toe the line so to speak and ease off
> when the time comes, monitor reactions, etc.
> Online it's hard - plus the delay means you
> can't count on emotions remaining remaining
> constant between emails, etc. I've found it
> a big change for me over the years.

Very true. One thing that works online is to always leave room for return contact. Don't just answer a question - ask another one.

> I missed what AQ is.

Oops. AQ is Adversity Quotient. It's perseverance. Tenacity. That certain je ne sais quoi some people just seem to have. AQ is a measure of how much get up and go you have as well as how you handle adversity.

People who can't handle adversity become easily overwhelmed and emotional. During times of stress, they often become consumed by anxiety, frustration or doubt, and often pull back, stop trying, or lose their focus.

People who handle adversity well are more likely to succeed than people with a low AQ level.

People with higher AQs out-perform, out-persist, out-create and out-pace those with lower AQs.

> This can be a big problem. It's difficult to
> work with ahead of time. Most people have a
> hard enough time seeing themselves
> successful - much less overly successful.

Very true. Most people think we humans have a fear of failure. I believe that more people are afraid of success than they are of failure. They think "Who, me? Successful?" My answer is "Yes, you. If you have knowledge or talents that you can share with the world, how DARE you be selfish enough to keep them to yourself? How DARE you not help other people to enjoy what you have learned!"

People usually look at me in utter shock. Then, like the grinch when he discovered the spirit of Christmas, a small smile starts to grow on their faces.

Planting seeds.

> Thank you Linda!

You are very welcome!

As always, it's all - just my two cents.
(three with the exchange rate)

: )
Linda Caroll


Your image - is my business

Hi,

I don't have time to fully develop my thesis, so here's a brief sketch.

Activities that you love can be classified as Yang or Yin. These classifications will vary from person to person. An activity that is Yang to Dan might be Yin to me.

If you'd do it without compensation, it's probably Yang.

Yin activities shouldn't be turned into businesses. Yang activities *should* be turned into businesses.

Computer programming is Yang to Bill Gates but is Yin to me. Publishing is Yang to Linda C.

I realize this message isn't very helpful except as it states that "activities you love" can't all be considered in the same way.

Best,

-Boyd