victimhood!

It's something about bringing up victimization
which draws everyone out to discuss....
love it...

A definition
victim: one that is tricked or duped,
one that is acted on and usually adversely
affected by a force or agent

Based on that definition how many have ever
been victims or are victims of something?

And then again if you've been tricked or duped
you might not know it...

One way to be aware of victimization is for
your awareness to be increased.

If you're perfect, then this post will be of
no interest to you...if you're on a path of
growth then just think about it...you might
be a victim and not even know it....

That's my point....

and because I made this point I am not trying
to analyze or make any point as to the efficacy
of any tool which can help people....

All I'm saying is in some respect I think most
of us have been, will be or are victims of
something or someone. Why do you think Gordon
is doing a class on RH(remote hypnosis)? which
he says can be used to "manipulate"....(another
word for dupe or trick)

Good for you if you think you're not a victim
of anyone...but I would like to stay objective
on the matter so I can recognize when there is
an effort being made to manipulate me..

Just my .02..

What is a victim?

A look at Merriam Webster shows

1 : a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite

2 : one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent (the schools are victims of the social system): as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions (a victim of cancer) (a victim of the auto crash) (a murder victim)
(2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment (a frequent victim of political attacks) b : one that is tricked or duped (a con man's victim)

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)...

1. A living being sacrificed to some deity, or in the performance of a religious rite; a creature immolated, or made an offering of.

2. A person or thing destroyed or sacrificed in the pursuit of an object, or in gratification of a passion; as, a victim to jealousy, lust, or ambition.

3. A person or living creature destroyed by, or suffering grievous injury from, another, from fortune or from accident; as, the victim of a defaulter; the victim of a railroad accident.

4. Hence, one who is duped, or cheated; a dupe; a gull. [Colloq.]

From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)...

1: an unfortunate person who suffers from some adverse circumstance 2: a person who is tricked or swindled [syn: {dupe}]

Now a look at responsible...

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)...

1. Liable to respond; likely to be called upon to answer; accountable; answerable; amenable; as, a guardian is responsible to the court for his conduct in the office.

2. Able to respond or answer for one's conduct and obligations; trustworthy, financially or otherwise; as, to have a responsible man for surety.

3. Involving responsibility; involving a degree of accountability on the part of the person concerned; as, a responsible office.

From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)...

1: worthy of or requiring responsibility or trust; or held accountable; "a responsible adult"; "responsible journalism"; "a responsible position"; "the captain is responsible for the ship's safety"; "the cabinet is responsible to the parliament" [ant: {irresponsible}] 2: being the agent or cause; "determined who was the responsible party"; "termites were responsible for the damage" [syn: {responsible for(p)}] 3: having an acceptable credit rating; "a responsible borrower" [syn: {creditworthy}]

Now Responsibility...

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)...

1. The state of being responsible, accountable, or answerable, as for a trust, debt, or obligation.

2. That for which anyone is responsible or accountable; as, the resonsibilities of power.

3. Ability to answer in payment; means of paying.

From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)...

1: the social force that binds you to your obligations and the courses of action demanded by that force: "we must instill a sense of duty in our children"; "every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity, an obligation; every possession, a duty"- John D.Rockefeller Jr [syn: {duty}, {obligation}] 2: the proper sphere or extent of your activities; "it was his province to take care of himself" [syn: {province}] 3: ability or necessity to answer for or be responsible for one's conduct; "he holds a position of great responsibility"; "young children on a farm are often given responsibilities" [syn: {responsibleness}] [ant: {irresponsibility}, {irresponsibility}]

From The Devil's Dictionary...

RESPONSIBILITY, n. A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star.

Sandy, you wrote...

> Based on that definition how many have ever
> been victims or are victims of something?

> you might
> be a victim and not even know it....

Sandy, I placed the meanings of victim and responsible so they could be compared. And I've also sniped a bit of your post to address it.

The thing that grabbed me most about your post was
"you might be a victim and not even know it."

It is precisely that type of thinking that has our societies filled with Do Gooders.

In the past, someone would make a bad decision and suffer the consequences of that decisions. They made their bed they lay in it.

But now...

It's not your fault... you're a victim... and you might not even know it.

Next step...

Lets go looking for all these people who don't know they're victims and help them.

Suddenly we end up with eveyone being a victim. And it's certainly welcoming for them as it means they can shift responsiblity onto anything other than themselves.

Suddenly, the decision they made wasn't bad... they were duped, or tricked, or taken advantage of, or whatever. But regardless... it's never their fault.

And yet, they were the ones who chose to do the deal, buy the product, spend their money, invest their time or what have you.

They chose to act. No one held a gun to their head and threatened them. (again, I know the knit pickers will come out in force and pick and chose some obscure examples of some kind).

An interesting point was made further down the board about saying "I am responsible" even if you're cut off in traffic.

I'd like to point out... you are responsible if you get cut off in traffic.

You chose to get into your car and drive. You chose to take the route you did. You chose to leave at the time you left. You chose to drive at the speeds you drove at to arrive at the cut off point. You chose to do all of those things. If you'd chosen to drive slower or faster or go via a different route or leave later or sooner, that cut off would not have happened as it did.

I've been involved in one car accident with me behind the wheel...

I was waiting in a line of traffic to turn onto a road. My entry point was governed by a STOP sign.

I'm one of those rare people that actually stops at stop signs.

So the cars in front of me move off and I move to the stop line to stop and make sure the road is clear.

As I was stopped and watching and waiting for the approaching car to pass I was sudenly thrust into the middle of the intersection. I'd been hit from behind.

Whose fault?

If we break it down we see something interesting.

From my point of view... I chose to be on the road at that time of day. I chose to go the route I went. I chose to obey the stop sign and stop. I chose to place myself at the scene of the accident. No one made me do any of those things. I take full responsibility for all of my actions. I placed myself at the accident's time and location.

The driver behind me also made choices. He chose to also be on that road at that time. He chose to not look. He chose to plant his foot and smash into the back of my car.

But, had I not been there, he wouldn't have hit me.

According to our road rules, he was in the wrong and his license took a hit accordingly.

But we are both responsible for our respective actions.

If you consider the accident a certainty, then my being hit is all my fault as I chose to do everything which put me at the accident place at the right time.

After the accident I was without a car for several days as they put it on "the rack" to straighten the chassis and repair the damage - the whole back end.

The other driver was also without a car after as his front end made his car unable to be driven.

Such was the force he hit me with.

The funny thing is, we were both calm about it.

We stood on the side of the road talking and waiting for the tow trucks and police and just chatted about stuff - what we both did for a living, sports, etc.

After that incident I vowed NEVER to be involved in an accident again. And I never have been. That was my first and only one. And there's something else interesting about it...

I had been thinking, about a minute before, "I've never been involved in a car accident, I wonder what it's like".

It didn't take me long to find out.

A hint at a future event?

Maybe.

I believe the statistics show that flight cancellations are largest for flights that end up crashing.

Does each person have a hint of that future event (bad feeling about the flight) though only some cancel their flights?

Certainly a metaphysical thing that.

Back to your point "you may be a victim and not even know it..."

Keep thinking that way and a person ends up looking for victim status.

How many times have I been a victim... let me count the ways...

In depends on your point of view...

If you're a victim everything is someone else's fault and you look for ways to make it so. Maybe to make yourself feel better.

It's far easier to blame someone else than to accept that maybe you've been an ass about something or made a wrong choice.

Gordon mentions looking at your past choices. Notice he doesn't say look at the times in the past you've been a victim?

Michael Ross.

I think we are talking about different
aspects of the same thing...
I'm not suggesting we look for victimization
status in order to blame anyone...
however based on the definition below:

> 3. A person or living creature destroyed by,
> or suffering grievous injury from, another,
> from fortune or from accident; as, the
> victim of a defaulter; the victim of a
> railroad accident.

again we are victims...your point seems to
be well i've made 'all choices' myself....
let's say you chose not to drive the car...
and then as you decided to walk a bus ran
over you...I guess you would say well I could
have chose to stay home...then if you couldn't
go to work because you chose to stay home and
did not have a job at home (due to one of
your other choices) and someone broke into
your house and "hurt you"...I guess then you
would say well I chose to have a house with
doors and windows...well this could go on and
on....
which is not why I want to keep this line of
discussion going...

I don't think you "want" to see any point but
your own...

I'm just trying to ask why does
"hypnosis" work? do you believe people look at
tv commercials and wait to be influenced?
If you believe this that's ok...but I think
differently...

I do think most people can be
hypnotised and there are a few who can't...
you are probably one of those who can "never"
be influenced in any way without your choice...

I "choose" not to "blame" others for my problems
and yet I "choose" to remain aware of the
possibility of manipulation...and when and if
I see that manipulation I will then make another
choice ...

I know and understand your position...I'm thoroughly familiar with libertarian type
thinking and "slavespeak" etc...I don't want
to get into the politics...

I just want to know if you think Remote
Hypnosis can happen or if you think people
cannot be hypnotised...I think more people
might be "like you" if they can first see
they might be a victim...I'm talking about
what people need to see FIRST before they
can make any choices.

> "you might be a victim and not even
> know it."

> It is precisely that type of thinking that
> has our societies filled with Do Gooders.

> In the past, someone would make a bad
> decision and suffer the consequences of that
> decisions. They made their bed they lay in
> it.

Michael

I believe that the steps of a good man are ordered by God as the Good Book tells me. In good or bad times, my faith has kept me going. I was lucky to have good parents who did give me a good foundation. They helped me to see that sometimes bad things happen to good people.

I don't believe in accidents but that everything happens for a reason. I'm not really a believer in metaphysics.It is like chasing the wind to me. Astrology is a parlor game.

I believe that my creator has my best interest at heart. In this lifetime, I will learn what I am supposed to learn. But whenever I am tempted to feel victimized, I stop and remember that I am learning something from all situations that will help me to build character. I come through the fire a wiser man.

Life is a process of becoming.

There are instances where we are tested by confidence men. In a measure of good faith, we may trust, unknowingly, someone who takes advantage of us. That happens to all of us. And who can claim it hasn't? That's life.

But if you break into my home, darn if I'll say I invited you because I forgot to lock my windows.
I don't get your thinking.

Hi Michael,

I think I essentially agree with what you say here...

I think there are two issues which may be confused....

1. Are you a victim in some sense?

2. Do you perceive yourself to be a victim?

I think these are probably two separate issues.... I think Sandy is probably talking about issue no. 1, and many others may be talking about issue no. 2.

But I fundamentally agree that if you perceive yourself to be a victim, it's a negative force which will influence your life....

This perception can rob you of your choice, in a way, because instead of seeing yourself as the one choosing your own destiny, you see it being chosen for you by others....

Dien

Hi Sandy,

Just thought I'd make some general comments....

I only just did my first pictogrigm of the Square One Workshops -- the Diagrigm of Life (DOL).... as Gordon explains here....

I'm a bit behind on my pictogrigms, but I'm going to FOCUS and catch up today! (Plus a whole heap of other stuff.... Today's going to be very busy....)

Near the middle of the lifeline there's

"EXPERIENCES"
(results)
outcome
responsibility

with an arrow pointing to these columns

5-10%
random
------
accidents
illness
unforeseen
unplanned
external
interventions

Chosen
------
Self
----
Aims (goals)
Financial
Physical
Social
Mental
Spiritual

Others
------
Childhood
Adults
school
environment
associations
Adults
surrendered

I know Gordon talks about this in more detail in other pictogrigms (I'm going to be doing mine today)....

But here is the importance of CHOICE....

Only 5-10% of what happens to you (on average) is random....

The rest of it is your own choice.... EXCEPT

If you're a child, then a lot of it isn't....

But if you're an adult, the rest IS you're choice unless you've SURRENDERED that choice....

As Gordon said in his post....
But, as an adult if someone is making the decisions about what you are experiencing, it is because you have SURRENDERED them.

This is tough for most people to accept.

I’ve been recruited for jobs (three times) but most of my work experience occurred because I went to THEM and raised my hand and said pick me, pick me, not the other guy…and they did.

I think how this relates to what you're saying, Sandy, is that to some degree people might be "victims" -- I think that's the average 5-10% random occurrences that can occur according to the DOL....

But, that means that 90-95% (on average) is your own choice if you're an adult, and if you haven't surrendered those choices to others....

By the way, there is great benefit in writing out the pictogrigms yourself in long-hand, compared with just reading them....

In the past, I had just read them. Now that I've written out Pictogrigm no. 1, I have a much better insight into it.... I highly recommend for everyone to do it....

Thanks for your insights Sandy.... I essentially agree that you're right -- we can be victims to a degree....

But I think a distinction needs to be made between the 5-10% (on average) of occurrences outside of your control, compared to the 90-95% of occurrences which are in your control....

- Dien

Michael wrote -

> An interesting point was made further down
> the board about saying "I am
> responsible" even if you're cut off in
> traffic.

> I'd like to point out... you are responsible
> if you get cut off in traffic.

> You chose to get into your car and drive.
> You chose to take the route you did. You
> chose to leave at the time you left. You
> chose to drive at the speeds you drove at to
> arrive at the cut off point. You chose to do
> all of those things. If you'd chosen to
> drive slower or faster or go via a different
> route or leave later or sooner, that cut off
> would not have happened as it did.

> I've been involved in one car accident with
> me behind the wheel...

[snipped]

And that was my very point. I just didn't go into the detail you. Responsible people choose to think and act *exactly* as you described. The reason I used the example about being cut off in traffic is because most of us think we're not responsible when something like that happens. But you're right. We are. And that's also why I suggested the affirmation "I am responsible" when situations like that come up when a person feels they're not responsible. As you said, we are. But most don't feel that way. Sadder still is the fact that most don't care to change.

> I had been thinking, about a minute before,
> "I've never been involved in a car
> accident, I wonder what it's like".

*That* could've been a mistake. I've done the very same thing with the very same results. I've also had similar things happen but with good thoughts and good results. Again. We're the ones responsible for the thoughts. Some believe that those thoughts set into motion unseen forces that attract those things, both good and bad, into our lives. Control your thoughts. Control your destiny. Does it work? Well, it has for me when I've consciously used it.

Rick Smith, "The Net Guerrilla"

Walt -

> I believe that the steps of a good man are
> ordered by God as the Good Book tells me. In
> good or bad times, my faith has kept me
> going. I was lucky to have good parents who
> did give me a good foundation. They helped
> me to see that sometimes bad things happen
> to good people.

True. However, in His infinite wisdom, our Father did *not* take from us the ability to choose. While He definitely has our best interests at heart, we are still free to make wrong choices just as our own earthly children do on occasion.
By that I mean, if your children have a choice between a good option and a bad option, sometimes they pick the bad option. So it is with us and what our Father wishes for us. Look at the children of Israel. All they had to do was follow Moses into the land of Canaan and remove the inhabitants. Instead, they earned the right to wander for 40 years because of their unrighteousness.

And yes. Random bad things do sometimes happen to good people. And hopefully those incidents *will* serve to make us stronger.

Rick Smith, "The Net Guerrilla"

> I don't get your thinking.

Neither do I. And I'm the one who's thinking these thoughts.

I mean, there was the time I woke up in the middle of the night and thought my feet were hanging out the end of the bed. So I got up to check.... they weren't.

See what I mean? I think one thing and it turns out to be something else.

Odd, eh?

:o)

Michael Ross.

> I'm not suggesting we look for victimization
> status in order to blame anyone...
> however based on the definition

> again we are victims...

Not to harp on... well yes... to harp on....

You're not looking for victim status but pick the definition that suits to make it impossible to not be a victim.

> I don't think you "want" to see
> any point but
> your own...

Sandy, I will listen to all points. Then pick the point that makes the most sense to me.

Your post came across to me as someone looking for a way to be a victim. I did not read it as,

> I'm just trying to ask why does
> "hypnosis" work? do you believe
> people look at
> tv commercials and wait to be influenced?
> If you believe this that's ok...but I think
> differently...

Because it wasn't stated clearly in the firt post.

> I do think most people can be
> hypnotised and there are a few who can't...
> you are probably one of those who can
> "never"
> be influenced in any way without your
> choice...

Sandy, no need to get personal here about the type of person I am. But your point is interesting and I'll answer it at the end of this post.

> I just want to know if you think Remote
> Hypnosis can happen or if you think people
> cannot be hypnotised...I think more people
> might be "like you" if they can
> first see
> they might be a victim...I'm talking about
> what people need to see FIRST before they
> can make any choices.

Sandy, the first thing you and just about every person on the face of the planet needs to understand about hypnosis is,

You Can Not Be Made To Do Anything Against Your Will Ever!!!

No one can ever put your under hypnosis and implant an idea for you to rob banks and leave the money somewhere for them to collect later, and then for you to forget all about it.

It just can't happen.

Moreover, during a session of hypnosis, the person being hypnotised has full control of themselves at all times. All times! Period.

If you smoke and want to quit but are finding it hard, a qualified hypnotist can help you. If you smoke and go to a qualified hypnotist because a loved one wants you to quit, very little will be achieved.

Why?

Because You don't want to quit.

Even if you say you want to, deep down YOU don't want to. You only say you do because your loved one wants it... for example.

People can lose weight by using hypnosis. BUT the success rate is way down when compared with treating other things with hypnosis.

The reason?

Asking someone to alter their eating habits, such as eating less, goes against our built in natural survival instincts.

Eating less is a threat to our survival and so the suggestion doesn't take as much. You mind rejects it.

Hypnosis is merely a very relaxed state which allows suggestions to get through to the subconscious more easily.

You still have control, all the time.

Now, how do you tell when someone is trying to manipulate you... what do you look out for?

When someone speaks to you face-to-face they are trying to manipulate you. When you read anything, either in a post, or in a newspaper or magazine, someone is trying to manipulate you. Anything you hear on the TV is an attempt at manipulating you - even the news.

Any interaction with another person is a manipulation taking place.

Either the person wants you to come over to their way of thinking, and whatever that means at the time. Or they want to make you react a certain way, whichever way they're aiming at at the time.

During an armed conflict the news you hear on your TV is tainted... slanted... to try to make you think a certain way. One side is painted as the bad guy and one side the good guy. If your country is involved, the good guys will be your country.

In this conflict example, the news in the bad guys' country will be the exact opposite. That is, your country will be the bad guy.

I'm trying to manipulate you in this post. I'm trying to convince you that my way of looking at things is better than another way. AND, if not that, to get you at least thinking about something differently - to challenge you. OR, simply to get you to bite and react. OR, to educate you about something which you may be unclear about and which I have experience and knowledge in.

Which one am I trying to achive in this post? I leave that up to you to decide. :o)

Now if we take the PO Bubble we see that a person cannot be manipulated unless they want to be manipulated first.

No matter how good your remote hypnosis skills are, YOU will not get me to buy model trains. They aren't a part of my interests or what pre-occupies me.

Discover my POs and cater to those and then you'll get somewhere.

Otherwise, it's like pushing runny custard up hill with a stick.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Michael Ross.