Scary Political Prediction of 2004 Now Coming True

[Ankesh]

Thanks for being so patriotic Woody.

If you don't like our new methods, upon entering the United States, fine. Don't come here.

This law of finger printing was passed when I was staying in the USA. And you know what - there were hundreds of *Americans* who didn't like the law either!

Were they a drain and a complainer to society too?

I think we should try to remain a bit more civil here.

Patriotism is good. But having an "everyone else can go to hell" attitude is not.

You didn't like how a few other countries treated you? Well - its your right to complain. But don't go: just because the other countries treated me poorly, we can treat people from other countries poorly too. Your thinking should be on a higher level than that.

ok ...

my two cents ...btw, it really is invigorating with yall on this site...so many 'personalities' involved , and I have each of you personified...hair color, height, etc....betcha most of you do too...

michael,
you are living in a dream world all ready ....any person with any type of credit history or any license or owning any real estate is ALL READY in the system...for 50 bux I can discover most of the details of your life...or anyone else's...from right here on the computer.

the part about the 'aliens' in the US...is a tough one for me. The legal ones should have access to all the benefits of being a citizen the same as the rest of us. The illegals...as the name implies, should be treated as the criminals they are, and exported. It feels to me the same as I felt about the abortion issue...who could possibly choose to murder a baby instead of allowing the little one to live ? very few, so what happened was the pros for abortion quit arguing that issue, and started arguing the issue of WHEN the fetus was an actual 'being"..re labeled the discussion.

on the other hand, the gubment pays extra for all those extra babies...babies who grow up in poverty and ghettos and apartment complex that would rival any jail.

same with the identity ...where are the lines ? boundaries to cross ? like your country with the guns, doesnt work does it ? Having had a couple of encouters with unsavory kids who were armed, I can tell you from first hand experience that , had I NOT be armed, I would have been beat and battered...and ,as it was, I managed to convince them that 'at least ONE of you is going to get shot....so , whoever that is, step up'.

hardly , what one envisions as a peaceful society.

kind got off subject here...but any time the govt instigates a policy such as the Patriot act, or gun control, or anti smoking...you can count on the further degradation of privacy ...it never ends until the people want it to end.

thanks
bob

Bob,

Thanks for jumping in.

you are living in a dream world all ready

I think, so correct me if I am wrong, you are hinting that I am living in a made up fantasy world of unreality, right? And not a wonderful country people Dream about coming to. So I'll address the second part as I think you're accusing me of...

any person with any type of credit history or any license or owning any real estate is ALL READY in the system...for 50 bux I can discover most of the details of your life...or anyone else's...from right here on the computer.

Bob, I am NOT disputing that the gummit already has many files available to it, which reveal much about me. Anything with a license/permit requirement sees my details on their system - car, boat, real estate. However, as it now stands, I can use CASH to buy whatever I want that does not require such record keeping, and NO-ONE knows I've got it.

The store might record the sale of a TV, but not to WHO. No-one knows what TV I own, or how many, nor how much *I* paid for them, nor when. No-one knows my Lifestyle Spending Habits when I buy with Cash.

In a cashless society, where transactions are carried out by fingerprint scanning, ALL my transactions are recorded and collated next to my name. Thus the Privacy I had when doing business with cash, is gone. And ALL my spending - not just stuff that involved govt licensing/permit requiremens - is available to be seen by Govt officials - and others who know how to access it. As the only way for it ALL to work across the board is for my fingerprint scan to be in a Central computer.

See he difference? Currently, what can be found out about me is limited to govt records forced upon me when buying those certain items. BUT, with fingerprint scanning, a central computer database is needed and ALL transactions are thus recorded.

Oh... by the way... stun guns and pepper spray for personal protection, is also illegal in this Country. Only the police may have such things. And carrying a knife for protection is Also illegal in his country. Of course, only law Abiding Citizens disarm themselves.

Michael Ross

thanks michael..

yep ..I do see the difference ....only point I waas trying to make...not ACCUSE you ...was that the gummit will just ake any additional step it needs to take to be able to follow YOUR money ...

changing the currency design....forcing retailers to record sales of items over 100 bux...eliminating larger denominations of currency ...all steps to follow you ..and me...

know this is NOT happending at the moment but just wait and see ...

the CASH underground economy is a definite target of the govt.

thanks again ...
bob

Bob,

Thanks for adding some more.

the CASH underground economy is a definite target of the govt

Our govt created a Goods and Services Tax (GST) of 10%. So an item that Used to sell for $100 would now sell for $110. And to figure out how much GST is on any item you buy, divide the sale price by 11.

Anyway. This GST ALSO applied to Services - lawn guys, plumbers, electricians, etc. So a $400 job would now be a $440 job.

Well, instead of Capturing More Tax from service people, it drove them underground more. So now they are More Willing to do a deal - as long as you do Not require paperwork.

That $400 plumbing job is now $380 without a receipt of work done. And so on. The gummit created this "Black Economy". And they are also the ones to Name it as if it is something Bad. Interesting.

Michael Ross

Originally Posted by Ankesh

Thanks for being so patriotic Woody.

This law of finger printing was passed when I was staying in the USA. And you know what - there were hundreds of *Americans* who didn't like the law either!

Were they a drain and a complainer to society too?

Nope. They are exercising their rights under our constitution AS US citizens.

Originally Posted by Ankesh

I think we should try to remain a bit more civil here.

Patriotism is good. But having an "everyone else can go to hell" attitude is not.

You ain't seen me bein uncivil yet. It's the perfect attitude. It's our fought for and died for right to stand up and tell anyone if you don't like our nation, then we have every right to tell you to get out and don't come back.

If that's to harsh for you, to bad! I've been a soldier, I've defended my country. You speak ill of my blessed country, because your inconvienenced, then you just opened up a can of whipass.

Originally Posted by Ankesh

You didn't like how a few other countries treated you? Well - its your right to complain. But don't go: just because the other countries treated me poorly, we can treat people from other countries poorly too. Your thinking should be on a higher level than that.

No country has ever treated me badly. They all have their protocols. Before I go to any country I contact their embassy and find out all I need to know. The good and bad. When I land in a country, I know what I'm walking into.

My comment was to point out that their are many countries out there, where entering is a great deal harder to get into then the minor inconveinence one experiences coming into the United States.

From the Trouse
Woody Quiñones

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by ImpactYourArea.com

You ain't seen me bein uncivil yet. It's the perfect attitude. It's our fought for and died for right to stand up and tell anyone if you don't like our nation, then we have every right to tell you to get out and don't come back.

Hmm... actually - as far as I know - you can't kick anyone out of USA just for holding an opinion.

Oh sure - you have the right to tell people to get out. But they don't actually have to listen to you. Even if you've served as a soldier.

That might sound unfair to you. But there is a very good reason behind it. Woody - as you've owned so many different businesses, you might be able to recognize the reason. Its quite simple: one can't improve if one shuts their ears to any criticism.

(I'm sure you don't throw your customers out when they complain - do you?)

The perfect attitude would be: "How can I make America best." Not "Oh they don't think America is best? They can go to hell."

--

Btw, just to set records straight - I do love America. I've lived there myself and loved living there. Its a great country with some great people.

Woody,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Here's the rub...

If I travel to another country I do as the laws of those countries advise. If I do not like an entry law I don't go to that country.

I Already said I would not go to the US BECAUSE of the law. I did NOT say I would go there and Then complain about it. Or I would go there and take your precious Jobs and send the money Back.

But let me go on a tanget with this...

What's the difference between tyraveling to the US to work and sending the money back - and - selling products into the US and getting the money that way?

Both see the US money leave the US and come to me... and when I sell a product into the US that's one less product made in the US so both see less work for US people. So why only biatch about one and not the other?

I don't know what illegals having rights has to do with this discussion, unless you are just venting.

And I am not Belly-aching. I am stating a Fact and My Response to that Fact... all stemming from Ankesh's mention of fingerprinting as ID. I suggest you re-read the Thread so you understand the Context of the topics mentioned.

Michael Ross

When this thread slows, lets start one about religion (J.K.)

Michael,

I would just like to ask,
Should a visitor to my country be treated like citizen of my country?

I could type for dys about my point of view but I don't have the time at the moment, so let me keep it simple by asking you this.

If your sister needed to borrow your vehile for a weeks time, would you allow it?
If so, what type of contract would be written?

Now, what if "Joe Bloke" came to you and said he needed to borrow your vehicle for a week?

Would you even borrow it to him?
If So, What Kind of documentation would you require?


If you required him to leave a fingerprint to verify his identity would he do it.

If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?



The great thing is he maintains his freedom in the fact that he doesn't have to enter the contract.




Don't get me wrong, I can debate both sides of this issue, but I simply can't understand why a person one does not know, should be treated like a person that one does know.
Jason

Jason,

Thanks for the questions...

Should a visitor to my country be treated like citizen of my country?

The answer is: Yes and No. And which one of those depends on what part of that country's laws we are talking about.

Yes, if you are refering to Property Rights. However, countries also have laws about buying Real Estate and foreigners. So Those laws must be adhered to. So in that part of the question the answer would be No.

But as far as criminal acts go - drink driving, theft, murder, rape, etc. - then all visitors should be treated as locals and subjected to the same punishments.

IF a person wishes to enter another country they must abide by the laws governing entry to those countries. If they do not like those laws then they don't go. Simple.

Such laws often include No Drug policies, as well as no Flora and Fauna policies. They MAY include certain Vaccination policies. Some require more strict Permission Slips (called a Visa) than others. Some have restrictions on how much alcohol or tobacco an Individual can bring in Without an Import Permit, and so on. Many such laws also apply to citizens. So the answer there is Yes.

On the issue of voting. As much as I think it is folly to vote, other's do not. So only those eligible to vote according to the laws of that country. That usually means Visitors are Not allowed to vote. So the answer becomes No.

But you know... even people in your own country aren't treated equally. I know in Australia for instance, it is Against the law to kill our native animals - kangaroos are an exception With a permit which allows only a certain number usually for culling purposes. But killing an Echidna, is off the list to everyone. Except, of course, the Aboriginal who killed one and then cooked it on the steps of parliament house - flaunting the laws right in the face of govt, who did nothing for fear of Abo outrage. (I am sure there are many so called minorities who seems to have Special Treatment in the US as well.)

If your sister needed to borrow your vehile for a weeks time, would you allow it?
If so, what type of contract would be written?

No. I would not allow it. And it has nothing to do with whether the sister is a nice person or a family battle is raging. I do NOT lend to family.

what if "Joe Bloke" came to you and said he needed to borrow your vehicle for a week?

Would you even borrow it to him?
If So, What Kind of documentation would you require?

My answer is still No. However, I can See what you are getting at. Though I am Not a Car Hire business.

If you required him to leave a fingerprint to verify his identity would he do it.

If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?

Whether he would leave his fingerprint as ID is up to him. I cannot answer that for him. I am sure, if ALL such car hire places required it - and - he was sufficiently motivated to hire the car, then he would do it. Otherwise he would not and would find a car that didn't require fingerprint IDing.

As to the second part of the question, "If he didn't do it, wouldn't you feel that it was the the best protection for your asset (vehicle)?"...

If I required he leave a print and didn't I wouldn't hire it to him. Simple. My business. I run it as I see fit. This is along the same lines as, "If I required him to leave a $1,000 deposit and he didn't..." Again, my business, I set the rules, if he doesn't like it he can go elsewhere. Simple.

The great thing is he maintains his freedom in the fact that he doesn't have to enter the contract.

Exactly. He is NOT being forced into it.

I simply can't understand why a person one does not know, should be treated like a person that one does know.

No-one said an unknown person should be treated as a known person. I did say, however, that people entering the US who are not US citizens, are given the same treatment as a criminal is given.

Let me throw in another scenario...

Imagine you arrive to enter Disneyland. They might have Season Passes which allow holders of that pass to enter at will. They also have Daily Tickets which grant permission to enter for that day only. Those are the rules of Disneyland. All who enter abide by them.

Season pass holders might have Special Bonuses - better places to eat, a wider selection of beverage at those places, and so on; just like a Flight Club Member. Which is fine. I don't think anyone would object to that. Disneyland makes the rules and if you want to enter the place, you abide by them, or do not enter.

What if, suddenly, Disneyland decided All non-season holders had to provide a criminal background check before entering? Would people do it? What about passing a drug test? A blood alcohol test?

Some would still do it and some wouldn't. Of those who do, it doesn't mean they are better people and less likly to do something bad inside, does it? And that's really what the fingerprinting is about... Supposedly stopping bad guys getting in.

Now, if that is its purpose, then my print does Not need to be recorded. It only needs to be Cross Referenced with the Do Not Permit Entry list, and then deleted when no match is found, doesn't it?

Again. I am not saying to treat all strangers as people one knows. But adding that, just because someone is a stranger doesn't mean they are a bad person and should be treated like a criminal, does it?

Michael Ross