What women/men want

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by -TW

Nature -- nurture -- yes, it's some of both.

But when you say we have control over nurture, that's not quite right, imo.

Of course you can control nurture. You may not be able to control how you were raised up. But you have a lot of control on how you will raise your own kid.

Where. What schooling. What kind of friends. What food. A lot of it you can control.

You can't control the history. But you can control how your kid perceives that history. That is why many 2nd generation Chinese and Indian kids don't have the same hangups in USA.

Even though they are born and bought up in USA - they go on to get higher grades and better jobs than the public - on average.

Originally Posted by -TW

Culture moves as culture moves. It evolves on its own, pretty much. It's not controllable. Evolution cannot be controlled, really. If you cut off the tail of each lab mouse that's born, that doesn't cause later mice to be born with no tails.

There was actually an experiment done. A bunch of monkeys were put in a big cage. A banana was dangled from the top of the cage. Whenever a monkey went to get the banana - all the other monkeys were given a small electrical shock.

Pretty soon - whenever a monkey from the group attempted to go after the banana - all the other monkeys got together and pounced on him.

So pretty soon - no monkey went for the banana.

Then the researchers removed one monkey from the group and added a new monkey. When this new monkey tried going for the bananna - all the other monkeys pounced on him. Soon he learned not to go after the banana too - but not why.

The researchers repeated the switch - removed one monkey and put up a new monkey in its place. The new monkey went for the banana and got pounced upon. And soon learnt the ways.

After a few switches - no monkeys from the old original group who were given electrical shocks remained in the cage. But yet - when a new monkey went for the banana - all the other monkeys went after him.

Behavior can be conditioned TW.

Behavior can be conditioned.

That's not the same thing as saying CULTURE can be conditioned or modified.

Behavior is one thing -- yes, I can 'control' how I raise my kid. That is my 'vote.' But that does not change the culture.

I voted for candidate x -- candidate y won. candidate y is the president.

it is what it is.

someone can say they PREFER women who are size 16 -- that doesn't stop every maniquin in every store from being a size 2.

the culture does what the culture does. unstoppable.

how many people are in your country. what conditioning would have to happen (on what scale + frequency) in order to 'induce' the use of toilet paper? could it be done intentionally?

How about the reverse? getting americans to NOT use toilet paper? what would your plan be to intentionally induce that?

-- TW

[Ankesh]

What is culture but a sum of all behavior of the masses?

Sure culture can be modified. Because bahvior can be modified. It just takes time. Don't confuse lack of speed with inability to change.

Compared to 10 years back - a lot of toilets in urban metropolitan India have toilet paper or water sprays that allow you to not use your hands to do the cleaning.

Who liked hip-hop music 15 years back? Hardly a few thousand folks? Yet today it is the most prevalent music genre out there. If that is not cultural change - then I don't know what is.

[Ankesh]

Thanks TW for a stimulating conversation.

Some time back - some professor proclaimed that men are inherently better than women when it comes to math. He based his research on the average SAT scores of boys and girls.

And he does seem right if you take the *proof* under consideration: women have rarely come up with a math breakthrough.

But you know that this is completely nurture based right? Nature hasn't made men better at math than women. But our societal norms have made the math gap wide. Because hard sciences is usually considered a male field.

That is changing according to professor Janet Hyde.
http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/07/are...s-at-maths.php

---

In USA: 30% of all people coming for treatment of sex addiction are females.
In UK - 20% of all people coming for treatment of sex addiction are females.
In India I'm sure this number is less than 10% or so.

What - women in India and UK are hard wired differently than women in USA?

Not really. Its just that not as many women in India and UK come forward.

They have similar impulses. But societal norms make them suppress these impulses.

Men and women are not too different. And at the same time men and women are not too similar either.

There's a big difference between culture that changes because it's evolving (on its own), and changing culture *on purpose* (controlling it).

I never said cultures don't change (evolve) -- I said you cannot make them change *on purpose* (by 'controlling' it/them).

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by -TW

I never said cultures don't change (evolve) -- I said you cannot make them change *on purpose* (by 'controlling' it/them).

You could tell that to all the revolutionaries the world has seen.

Edison. Jesus. Gandhi.

They changed cultures. On purpose.

Or at least they were the "trimtab" that changed cultures.

(I agree that culture is too big to be *controlled* though. But it can be guided.)

[Ankesh]

And as another world changer says:

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

You brought up about hip-hop music becoming prominent in pop culture.

I'd say that evolved. The culture 'flowed' in that direction. It was an unstoppable change. No one could purposely 'arrange' it otherwise. One could not make, say, big band music become 'all the rage.'

The culture goes where it wants to go.

Same goes for the 'ideal' female body shape for 'sexual attractiveness.' It is what it is. A VERY narrow definition (in every sense of the word). I agree maybe it SHOULDN'T be that way. But it IS that way. Makes no sense. Not based on reality, what's 'normal' or average or realistic, etc. It is what it is. It has changed over time (Marilyn Monroe would be a 'fat chick' now a days) -- and I'm sure it will change in the future. All we can do is sit back + watch.

Originally Posted by Bozo

You can't know the depths from the shallow end of the pool. You're only looking at one aspect of the human critter, being sex.

Umm -- yes, that's the whole (+ only) point of this thread. That's why I keep saying, "ON THIS TOPIC." Meaning sex, sexy, + what's considered sexually attractive.

[Ankesh]

Thanks TW.

Re: hiphop - you may want to read up on the Wu Tang Clan. How they became one of the early trimtabs to bring hiphop to the mainstream and become successful themselves.

You could say that if there was no Wu Tang Clan - someone else would have taken their place to take hiphop mainstream. But who knows if you would have been right or wrong?

(On a related note: the boy band rage of the mid to late 1990s was completely manufactured by a small group of people.)

Re: dress sizes. As far as I know (and I may be wrong here): Fashion magazines were the trimtabs that drove the thin trend.

But recently - Dove is doing very well in using non-models in their ads. They are getting very good results. And I see the trend changing.

We will always witness the Rolex* effect - but should start seeing more healthier and average looking models too.

* Rolex effect = Rolex positions itself as a watch very rich people should buy. But the people who end up buying Rolexes are those folks who want to show others that they are rich.

In hindsight - you can see where all the cultural changes originate from. And if you are really passionate about the cause - and want to - you can try to bring the change yourself. (You could do what Dove did.)

Or you could just say it is what it will be. And do what you've always been doing.

But I stand with my point: cultures change. And there are people who *start* this change of culture. And you could be one of those change catalysts and pioneers if you really wanted to be.