TW (and others) Very good discussin. IMHO

TW, if memory serves me, you do do a lot with local businesses.
That's where I'm focussed, too.
I'm a great fan of Clayton Makepeace. But, even though he really overdelivers, he is doing stuff for the big mailers.
That's not what I do (or maybe even want to do).
But his recent (free) newsletter talked about repositioning from a copywriter to "partnering" with your clients and not freelancing.
He talks about the coming recession or downturn and how this will help you survive and prosper.

This article started a real barn burner discussion that is chock full of ideas.
Many of these are applicable to those of us who are in the "small business" niche.

TW, you may enjoy this.
I have taken a lot away from this.

I was getting ready to do a mailing to a cold list of members of a local Chamber of Commerce.

This topic totally changed my hook and focus.
It's now "Will your business thrive, survive or die in the coming recession."

Obviously, I'm the solution.

Here's the link.
Clayton's Recession Positioning Ideas.

Hope this was helpful.

Larry Foster

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by Larry Foster

But his recent (free) newsletter talked about repositioning from a copywriter to "partnering" with your clients and not freelancing.
He talks about the coming recession or downturn and how this will help you survive and prosper.

Obviously, I'm the solution.


Larry Foster

Yes Larry you are the SOLUTION. But then, you always have been. I love Clayton...not so sure about AWAI since I visited them last year...but, Clayton is spot on. HOWEVER,

even though I currently have those kind of relationships with marketing companies that Clayton talks about...and what he says is great stuff...

And HE and about a dozen others selling "copywriting" courses or how to build a copywriting business all have ONE thing in common...and he talks about this in the post you linked to...

The continous EFFORT of finding new customers...and doing MORE WORK for those people you have. This is great advice.

And I'd be following this great advice but for two reasons:

ONE, I'm too old and tired to be working that hard (and I'd like to eliminate ALL my clients ASAP)

TWO, the TOLL POSITION as Harvey Brody teaches it (the "set it and forget it" model)...

has me working about 80% of my time on setting up those kinds of LONG term, continuous, ownership and use and control, type deals that eliminate the need to find new customers or to satisfy and do more for the customers you have. It is IN MY OPINION, a much better model, especially for us older types...

than to get into "relationships" and become a "partner" as opposed to a FREELANCER...

I 110% agree with Clayton that the "partnership" is better than FREELANCING, and my current deals are along those lines...with a % of profits that I help generate...GOOD STUFF.

But in my eyes, a Harvey Brody TOLL POSITION that pays for years, or decades perhaps, as many of his have done...with the ability to cash out instantly (by flipping for a profit) or holding on to build up equity...as Clayton is doing with his ad agency (using it as his big money cash out for retirement)...and/or passing it on to your heirs or estate...

is a model that has greater appeal to me.

Thanks for pointing us all to that excellent discussion at Clayton's place.

Gordon Jay Alexander

PS. OH, his model does require you to have SKILLS, as in copywriting and marketing and negotiating...in Harvey Brody's model, it is possible for a complete neophyte to hit a home run with some continuous effort...learning as he goes by DOING the step by step process.

PPS. HERE IS a bit of GOLD from Clayton...hope he doesn't mind:
***********Quoted from Clayton Makepeace****************
Here in the States, there are twenty million businesses with 500 or fewer employees. I’m sure there are millions in Australia as well.

Many of these businesses are NOT your best prospects. Many are too small, too ignorant, too poor. Others (among the larger ones) are too arrogant (read: ignorant) or already have the marketing thing covered well.

That still leaves millions of businesses that would be dream partners for all of us!

They have products that bring tremendous value to customers’ lives.

Their owners are highly motivated to grow (or in this recession, to survive).
****************End of quote****************8

And this answers the question (I've gotten in PM and email) about WHO is going to really pay for a $100,000.00 a seat seminar? "Come ON Gordon, you're NUTS!"

FACT is, as Clayton points out...there are thousands of small biz owners, doing 10 to 50 million a year that would love to add a huge % of new business to their bottom lines. We know who they are. We have the goods they need...and it isn't about the number...it is, as I seem to be saying more and more every day...all about your TARGETS...

IT IS ABOUT YOUR CUSTOMERS...OR WOULD BE CUSTOMERS.

Do you know how many owners/CEO's would not want to increase their million dollar businesses a few more million...there may be a few...but they aren't on our lists.

gjabiz

-- TW

Gordon...

This may be a dumb question: When you say toll position, do you mean a 'freestanding' or 'floating' toll position --- or --- do you mean signing up biz's to particular ("custom made") toll arrangements (a la J Abraham)?

If it's the latter, I heard (+ I'm no expert) that companies are really reluctant to sign up for arrangements like that -- even though it's "if I bring in a dollar's worth of biz, will you give me 15 cents?" They won't take that deal because it also comes attached with the word -- 'forever.'

In other words, it's like the old "it only costs 10 dollars to get someone to hit a machine with a wrench to get it going -- but it takes $1,000 to find the guy who knows EXACTLY WHERE to hit the machine with the wrench."

THAT makes sense to a biz -- and they'd be willing to pay the $1,000. Where it gets dicey (I've heard) is when you want them to hit the machine (*ONCE*) to get it going, then you tell them you want $1,000 ------
***A MONTH***, from now on.

How does all of the above fit in with the kind of toll arrangement(s) you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

That quote...

Here in the States, there are twenty million businesses with 500 or fewer employees. I’m sure there are millions in Australia as well.

Many of these businesses are NOT your best prospects. Many are too small, too ignorant, too poor. Others (among the larger ones) are too arrogant (read: ignorant) or already have the marketing thing covered well.

That still leaves millions of businesses that would be dream partners for all of us!

They have products that bring tremendous value to customers’ lives.

Their owners are highly motivated to grow (or in this recession, to survive).

__________________________________

That's what I mean when I say I'm reluctant to approach biz's about ideas... There's a certain kind of open-minded WISDOM that the real leaders have, that the underlings DO NOT.

Some people + companies have this as their main mission: NEVER BE WRONG! In their minds, it's way more important to *never be wrong* than it is to be right. Which is why their frist instinct, upon hearing a new idea, is to SHOOT IT DOWN. The risk (to them) of being WRONG, far outweighs the POSSIBLE benefit of being right (choosing a new idea) -- so it's just EASIER + LESS RISKY to merely close off all incoming ideas.

REAL leaders + companies are ALWAYS on the lookout for ways to improve -- open to ALL new ideas. Even WELCOMING them! That is the kind of "WISDOM"-based companies and exec's I'm looking for -- and afraid I WON'T find (or be able to get to). THOSE are the exec's at the TOP, not the middle!!

That is what that Makepeace quote was about!

Your thoughts?

-- TW

Gordon, excellent point on Toll Positioning.
Since I'm a little slow, I'm still trying to get my head around it.
I understand what a toll position is (I think) but how to find and set one up eludes me right now.
As far as what I'm doing, my mailer is a pre-qualifier and I will offer a free 15 minute telephone consultation which should further qualify anyone who takes the initiative to call.
Looking for upfront and (if web work) setting it up so that I have ongoing income and work.
TW, glad you enjoyed it.
Larry

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by -TW

Gordon...

This may be a dumb question: When you say toll position, do you mean a 'freestanding' or 'floating' toll position --- or --- do you mean signing up biz's to particular ("custom made") toll arrangements (a la J Abraham)?

If it's the latter, I heard (+ I'm no expert) that companies are really reluctant to sign up for arrangements like that -- even though it's "if I bring in a dollar's worth of biz, will you give me 15 cents?" They won't take that deal because it also comes attached with the word -- 'forever.'

In other words, it's like the old "it only costs 10 dollars to get someone to hit a machine with a wrench to get it going -- but it takes $1,000 to find the guy who knows EXACTLY WHERE to hit the machine with the wrench."

THAT makes sense to a biz -- and they'd be willing to pay the $1,000. Where it gets dicey (I've heard) is when you want them to hit the machine (*ONCE*) to get it going, then you tell them you want $1,000 ------
***A MONTH***, from now on.

How does all of the above fit in with the kind of toll arrangement(s) you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

All of the above...does NOT fit in at all with the Toll Positions strategies that Harvey Brody talked about in his document.

As far as "free standing" and "floating" I'm clueless as to what you are talking about. And in fact...in FACT...
there are companies willing and DO give a continuous royalty to people who bring them new ideas and new products.

As for what Jay Abraham teaches...I don't really know...but I don't think it is the same thing...from my limited understanding, it appears he teaches more about exploiting hidden assets...but again, I don't have first hand knowledge of what he does teach...

I did TODAY, receive an email from one of his students who has made a connection with an inventor. This inventor wants to just keep inventing...while others bring the product to market.

This presents a REAL on-going, "set it and forget it" type of TOLL POSITION that I refer to. It isn't about approaching a business at all. Has nothing to do with adding more business for a % (although it can be argued in the larger sense it does, as when LOWE'S or HOME DEPOT add q product to their shelves)...

I think Jay and Dan and Clayton and Harlan and Marlon et al...have wonderful information...but NONE of them do a Classic Take Off as Harvey Brody detailed in his course 25 years ago. NONE OF THEM.

I currently have 4 (FOUR) "students" for lack of a better term. A couple are real students of Jay and a couple of others and they all have belonged to innercircles and have purchased information products. NONE of them have given me a dime...and I wouldn't take it if offered.

I'm not selling what I know (yet). These 4 came to me. These 4 took action on Harvey's document. They came asking, "Do you think is the type of project Harvey Brody would do?"

And I gave them my answer. From that, I've been on the phone with all 4. They all seem sincere and are DOING, they now have a better understanding of what is out there. I think all 4 'GET IT' about the opportunity that exists about finding stored value and how many products, inventions and IP is available to exploit.

They ALL are nervous about screwing things up. I've reassured ALL of them, it is OK to do that, as long as you learn from it. Go ahead and SCREW up 10 potential deals...and you'll make big BANK on the 11th, as long as you don't repeat your screw ups. We teach a learn by doing process.

I could be wrong, but I think Jay Abraham spends a certain amout of time helping people get their "thinking" caps screwed on. I could be wrong about this.

But in 5 months of study, IF a person were to have contacted 10 potential TOLL POSITIONS, and learned from each one...there would be no reason to doubt that by month 6 there would be a deal in place...and it only takes one to get the ball rolling.

Today I have 4 "students". In 6 months, maybe 40. In 2 years 400. 400 people or more scouring the globe for TOLL POSITIONS, and we would not have even scratched the service of the ideas and products available.

I have an inkling of what everyone else does teach...I do KNOW for a fact, there is NO ONE else teaching what Harvey Brody has to offer. Who else has the 54 years of continuous success DOING IT? None of those guys people are PAYING (often hundreds and thousands of dollars to) to learn from even has a clue as to how to get a real "set it and forget it" TOLL POSITION. IF they did, they wouldn't be selling you their TIME, would they?

Gordon Jay Alexander

What JA teaches (as I understand it) is about finding untapped resources, etc. -- but then setting up (what I would call) toll postitions -- I stand between you and getting higher profits, and collect a toll for every dollar that goes ("flows") through what (the better-ROI systems) I have set up. I am the choke point through which the higher profits must flow. That can be set-it-and-forget-it systems.

What I meant by free-standing as opposed to custom-built is, setting up toll boths to which both sides can come (and then leave) at will. Example: eBay.

A 'portal' that charges people (one one side or the other, or both sides) to use it. A free-standing toll booth.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by toll position altogether.

Can you write a definiton for us -- in one or two lines. Can you define the optimum situation or system you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by -TW

Can you write a definiton for us -- in one or two lines. Can you define the optimum situation or system you're talking about?

Thanks.

-- TW

NO TW, I can't. The reason? There is the Harvey Brody document that explains it all. Gives examples. Tells people exactly how to get started. Read that, then you'll know what a real toll position is.

In your examples, you say JA shows a "set it and forget it" toll. Give me ONE example, just one...

where there has been a toll position in place for more than 3 decades?

gjabiz

PS. Here is the link to the document. http://www.sowpub.net/files/harveybrody.pdf

TW,

Thanks for your thoughts on the Push V Pull marketing idea.

Years ago there was some good debate on this by J. Nicholas Schmidt (here's an old article he wrote http://www.talkbiz.com/digest/emt5.html and you can find some more stuff by him in his old Profit Stream newsletter by Googling his name) who has all but disappeared from online, it seems.

His main beef was with Bill Myers who was advocating a Build It And They Will Come concept. I'm sure it related to what Bill was selling at the time. As that is a technique Bill always used - talk about something (to build interest) and then offer a product about it. He was probably priming the eShowcase pump. So readers just figured all they needed to do was build an eShowcase site and Bill would sell them a copy of his eShowcase Software.

Anyway. Bill was a Built It Guy and Nicholas was not. It was good to watch.

And the thing with such Debates is...

It ignores the Underlying Reason why a person chooses one way over another. One such reason being Funds.

See. Bill's logic as he expressed in the Direct Mail Bootcamp was... it took Industry 20 years of advertising to convince people to use deodorant (back when that was). If you don't have the Funds to sustain such Bugging nor want to spend as much Time to achieve something... THEN... drum roll... sell what people are Already looking to buy - and - they will find you because They are searching.

Halbert had the same logic... provide solutions to problems people are Already concerned about and/or are trying to solve. Radon might be a problem but as no-one seems to care about it, it makes little sense to spend the Time and Money to get into the Radon Solving market.

Interestingly... a lot of those promoting Pull marketing, use Push marketing to make their sales of their Pull Marketing How To book.

Re Jiffy Mix. Down in Australia was have a brand of mustard powder and curry powder called Keen. We even have a saying... as keen as mustard (which many people use without knowing the brand association behind it).

Keen NEVER advertises. They never have ads in TV, in the Newspaper, or Radio. They NEVER have their product in a supermarket's catalog. Their product sits Passively on the shelf waiting for those who want to cook a curry to come and get it. Do they Pay the supermarket to be there (this is standard practice in supermarkets) - or - are they like Coke (the supermarket Has to stock the product)? I don't know, nor care.

One thing they are NOT doing is Bugging people or spending money on Active Advertising. Their product sits and does nothing. It waits.

Same applies to Deb Potato (instant mash potato). It's a Forever Product. It's been on shelves as long as I can remember. No Media Advertising. No catalog advertising.

There are two makers of Brown Rice. Neither advertises. One does short grain the other long grain. Different market? Maybe. But both have been around for a lo-o-o-o-o-ong time. They BUG no-one.

Isn't that the Logic of the Yellow Pages? You don't need to convince someone to use your Type of service - they already want to which is why they are looking in the Yellow Pages. You just need to convince them to use You Instead-Of Your Competitor.

Sure, a lot of those business Could increase sales by Bugging people. But that costs MONEY and TIME. And many of those businesses don't have one or both of those things. So from a Bang For Buck point of view... they get more Return on their Yellow Pages ad or their small ad in the Trade Section of the local newspaper. And in a way, those ads Are Targeted - as much as they can be.

CEOs... remember... whether the company is small, Big or HUGE, they are still people. And they exhibit Lemming Like Behavior just as a small business owner does. That they are CEOs just means they have played the office politics game better than others.

Are there those who are the type you are looking for? Sure. Just as some of those would be in the small business sector as well. Small, Big or Huge makes no difference. You'll find it just as hard (or easy) to market to them all. Nepotism, lemming behavior, indecision, etc., exists at all levels.

The problem you face is... whatever you claim you can do, is being claimed by everyone else as well - even if they are full of it. And that's where a Satisfactory Existing Economic Relationship - or nepotism - comes into play to your advantage.

Simon Latouche once posted an interesting Story about taking 10% of your profit and spending it on advertising, without moving to a larger store or office. And as business grows, keep using that 10% of sales profit as your advertising budget - even when business is flat out.

And your Advice to the CEOs might be as simple - dudes, you has gots to spend money on advertising and bug the heck out of people and profits will come. But, it's the same message they hear from all the people selling ad space.

Here's an angle... instead of trying to beat a path to the door of the mythical Wise CEO... why not call companies and ask them if they have a Rep program - yes, be a Manufactures/Whatevers Rep or Commission Seller.

Now you are in. You then apply your Technique on a small scale for Yourself. Your sales go gangbusters. It will be noticed. And it's a pretty good bet you could get a meeting then. Then again, at that point you might not care because you're making dollars at a level that satisfies you.

Michael Ross