MATH and the cost of time.

[GordonJ]

OK, this is one of those, "I just don't get it" things, maybe someone can explain.

There is a Facebook Group for people doing 9x12 Co-Op Postcard marketing. One guy, the most active member, has a "process"...

He pays a person to "scrape" business addresses, emails, contact info.
He then sends them a tear sheet which looks like a newspaper article (more expense).
He then calls and/or emails them/talks on phone,
He says it takes 3 weeks, and I assume this is start to finish, but don't know.

Over the last couple of years, I've spoken with many advertising salespeople.

During that time, I've never rec'd a single giant co-op card.

My CONCLUSION, for the sake of cutting to the chase...

why do people value their time so little?

Chasing the bottom feeders of the advertising world, and selling them CO-OP ads, appears to be very TIME INTENSIVE.

Millions of dollars are available in real COOPERATIVE ad money, where the big company has committed dollars to their budgets...

it just doesn't add up.

3-5 weeks, chasing 12, 14 or 16 businesses to go on a coop card, for a net of perhaps, 3,000 (and that is high from the people I've spoken with)

VS.

ONE customer, who can afford to mail his own postcard. A simple one call close, to targeted businesses.

I don't get it. But, my math skills are focused on the Net Profit in the quickest and shortest path (time).

You, who are doing 9x12 or a variation, how much value do you put on your time? AND...

Why not just call on those businesses who can afford to do their own and get it done in a matter of days, not weeks?

Gordon

PS. It isn't really relevant to what I'm doing, just more of a curiosity about why people get involved with so much slop? What is the appeal of a 9x12 co-op? I get co-op postcards, but have evolved my process over the years to streamline and follow the path of least resistance.

Don't know much about the facebook group you referenced.
Why would anyone need a group for selling ad programs?
Just get out there and do it.

I've done variations on the variations you've mentioned
though.

Yes, time is of the essence. Get them done in hours, not
days but then, I don't snail mail anything.

It's all about the relationships.

Build those with the right people and you'll do ok.

Ron

Originally Posted by GordonJ

OK, this is one of those, "I just don't get it" things, maybe someone can explain.

There is a Facebook Group for people doing 9x12 Co-Op Postcard marketing. One guy, the most active member, has a "process"...

He pays a person to "scrape" business addresses, emails, contact info.
He then sends them a tear sheet which looks like a newspaper article (more expense).
He then calls and/or emails them/talks on phone,
He says it takes 3 weeks, and I assume this is start to finish, but don't know.

Over the last couple of years, I've spoken with many advertising salespeople.

During that time, I've never rec'd a single giant co-op card.

My CONCLUSION, for the sake of cutting to the chase...

why do people value their time so little?

Chasing the bottom feeders of the advertising world, and selling them CO-OP ads, appears to be very TIME INTENSIVE.

Millions of dollars are available in real COOPERATIVE ad money, where the big company has committed dollars to their budgets...

it just doesn't add up.

3-5 weeks, chasing 12, 14 or 16 businesses to go on a coop card, for a net of perhaps, 3,000 (and that is high from the people I've spoken with)

VS.

ONE customer, who can afford to mail his own postcard. A simple one call close, to targeted businesses.

I don't get it. But, my math skills are focused on the Net Profit in the quickest and shortest path (time).

You, who are doing 9x12 or a variation, how much value do you put on your time? AND...

Why not just call on those businesses who can afford to do their own and get it done in a matter of days, not weeks?

Gordon

PS. It isn't really relevant to what I'm doing, just more of a curiosity about why people get involved with so much slop? What is the appeal of a 9x12 co-op? I get co-op postcards, but have evolved my process over the years to streamline and follow the path of least resistance.

[GordonJ]

Some guy named Osman Majeed runs it It came up because I'm mentoring one of my postcard guys, who seems to be stuck on the 9x12, despite some success with Hosts and Tradeshows

Sigh, some people, just are addicted to complicating the simple...so, I took a look and ran across all that, uh, nonsense?

You are right, who needs a group for selling ads? I guess many people who have brought into the concept of easy money.

I'm constantly amazed why people don't know their own community, and the businesses in it.

Although I've done the 9x12 with variations, the years have taught me to go with those who can afford what you are selling, it saves a ton of time= more moolah.


Gordon

Originally Posted by ron lafuddy

Don't know much about the facebook group you referenced.
Why would anyone need a group for selling ad programs?
Just get out there and do it.

I've done variations on the variations you've mentioned
though.

Yes, time is of the essence. Get them done in hours, not
days but then, I don't snail mail anything.

It's all about the relationships.

Build those with the right people and you'll do ok.

Ron

Gordon, I think it goes to the idea that it's easier to sell someone on a $300-400 product/service than it is to sell someone on a $4000 product/service.

The happy medium of course would be to split the difference and sell someone 1/2 the card and someone else the other half - non-competing but complementary businesses.

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by TommyBoy

Gordon, I think it goes to the idea that it's easier to sell someone on a $300-400 product/service than it is to sell someone on a $4000 product/service.

The happy medium of course would be to split the difference and sell someone 1/2 the card and someone else the other half - non-competing but complementary businesses.

Sure, all kinds of ways to do it, from 20+ ads on a giant postcard to a single card.

MOST major insurance companies, offer a cooperative ad budget, each comes with its own restrictions and requirements, but agents who use this money, can afford to run their own cards, as can banks, lawyers, etc.

AND if price is easier, then how about a 99 dollar ad, where it would be a no brainer one call sale on the spot?

Advertising, for the most part is a value proposition, so costs become relevant. The lawyer who does liability cases, for injury, may have clients worth tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars...so the 4,000 it takes to land a new client is a bargain.

So, the lifetime or overall value of a customer comes into play. Knowing a doctor, dentist or professional has a higher lifetime value client than the barber shop, gives the sales person the ability to pick and choose their someone.

We discovered running around didn't suit us, and started evolving our advertising business into a SPEED business, what gives us the highest return on TIME, and it normally kills other things BECAUSE it forced us to choose the someone we wanted as clients.

OF course we are all free to do whatever, however, I simply can't see why it would take 3 weeks to sell a postcard, when it should be an easy 3 day deal, if it is done properly...and without having to send out tear sheets, hire scrapers, make a ton of phone calls, send out email...

WHEN, knowing who in your town spends the money on ads, and aren't concerned about saving two nickles, but rather want something which works, and brings them more business...and their customers are valuable to them.

It can be fun and easy, and FAST...why take 3-5 weeks and all that running around, when in that same amount of time, you could have 10 single clients doing a solo mailing, and mix in some two, three or 6 or even 18 co-op cards if you want?

No, I think the problem is, there are some crafty, shrewd and slick guys (or gals) selling PROGRAMS and back-ends. NOT a problem for me and others, but the problem is reflected in how much "support" and hand holding these people need, when selling advertising is one of the simplest things you could do. Don Alm created all kinds of successful ad projects and very few of them took all that time and slop.

Just saying, or venting...but no worries, I let my "students" know very clearly if they want to do something different or join a cult or a group...that's ok with me, just delete my number from your phone.

Gordon

Read this thread the other day and what shows up in the mail yesterday - an odd sized, door hanger postcard. On one side is a local restaurant, on the other a plumber.

An odd combination, but...I know from my research that both advertise like crazy. They spend the money to get their share of the market, not content to let "whatever happens", happen.

These are the kind of businesses Gordon is referring to in this thread. They WANT to spend the money to get out ahead of their competition. They have a proven track record of doing so.

I have collected the proof.

No need to convince them that they need to market themselves to survive and thrive.

They're already doing it.

So, this thread has me thinking, what if I found just one of these types of go-getter businesses a month and set up a monthly postcard mailer for them.

If I cleared $1,000 per month from each advertiser, for virtually no work on my part, would it be worth my time?

What might my income be by the end of the year, if I found 2 businesses each month to do solo postcard mailers?

Could I sign them up like this for a while, "put 'er on autopilot" and just collect the checks each month, from a beach somewhere?

Gordon...ya gots me thinkin'!

Ron

Originally Posted by GordonJ

Sure, all kinds of ways to do it, from 20+ ads on a giant postcard to a single card.

MOST major insurance companies, offer a cooperative ad budget, each comes with its own restrictions and requirements, but agents who use this money, can afford to run their own cards, as can banks, lawyers, etc.

AND if price is easier, then how about a 99 dollar ad, where it would be a no brainer one call sale on the spot?

Advertising, for the most part is a value proposition, so costs become relevant. The lawyer who does liability cases, for injury, may have clients worth tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars...so the 4,000 it takes to land a new client is a bargain.

So, the lifetime or overall value of a customer comes into play. Knowing a doctor, dentist or professional has a higher lifetime value client than the barber shop, gives the sales person the ability to pick and choose their someone.

We discovered running around didn't suit us, and started evolving our advertising business into a SPEED business, what gives us the highest return on TIME, and it normally kills other things BECAUSE it forced us to choose the someone we wanted as clients.

OF course we are all free to do whatever, however, I simply can't see why it would take 3 weeks to sell a postcard, when it should be an easy 3 day deal, if it is done properly...and without having to send out tear sheets, hire scrapers, make a ton of phone calls, send out email...

WHEN, knowing who in your town spends the money on ads, and aren't concerned about saving two nickles, but rather want something which works, and brings them more business...and their customers are valuable to them.

It can be fun and easy, and FAST...why take 3-5 weeks and all that running around, when in that same amount of time, you could have 10 single clients doing a solo mailing, and mix in some two, three or 6 or even 18 co-op cards if you want?

No, I think the problem is, there are some crafty, shrewd and slick guys (or gals) selling PROGRAMS and back-ends. NOT a problem for me and others, but the problem is reflected in how much "support" and hand holding these people need, when selling advertising is one of the simplest things you could do. Don Alm created all kinds of successful ad projects and very few of them took all that time and slop.

Just saying, or venting...but no worries, I let my "students" know very clearly if they want to do something different or join a cult or a group...that's ok with me, just delete my number from your phone.

Gordon

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by ron lafuddy

Read this thread the other day and what shows up in the mail yesterday - an odd sized, door hanger postcard. On one side is a local restaurant, on the other a plumber.

An odd combination, but...I know from my research that both advertise like crazy. They spend the money to get their share of the market, not content to let "whatever happens", happen.

These are the kind of businesses Gordon is referring to in this thread. They WANT to spend the money to get out ahead of their competition. They have a proven track record of doing so.

I have collected the proof.

No need to convince them that they need to market themselves to survive and thrive.

They're already doing it.

So, this thread has me thinking, what if I found just one of these types of go-getter businesses a month and set up a monthly postcard mailer for them.

If I cleared $1,000 per month from each advertiser, for virtually no work on my part, would it be worth my time?

What might my income be by the end of the year, if I found 2 businesses each month to do solo postcard mailers?

Could I sign them up like this for a while, "put 'er on autopilot" and just collect the checks each month, from a beach somewhere?

Gordon...ya gots me thinkin'!

Ron

Yes, good thinking too. I collect ads and junk mail, I imitate Denny Hatch, in my area, I know Who's Mailing What.

I too can see who is spending money or as you call them, "go-getter" businesses who
"want to spend money",
in other words, they know they have to advertise.

Now, consider this, try an ADVERTORIAL and take it to the business, show them something different they may have never seen before and walk out with a check.

Stay away from coupons but have strong action offers and a REASON why for the offer.

I'll give ONE away for everyone. Insurance.

And either roofers or basement water proofers for the back side.

On the insurance side, a little map of the Zip Codes, with red dots and/or amounts like 10k, or 3k or Car...and ask the agent what claims he has paid out in this code (could be over 5 years even)...

County Farm Insurance has Paid out over $123,987.53 to residents living in this map area. What name should we put on your check?

Then, and here is THE SECRET, tell the story of one of those neighbors, who added value to their home via a NEW ROOF and had to increase the amount of insurance.

Maybe mention HAIL DAMAGE, often a claim that doesn't get paid because the homeowner didn't want to pay a little bit extra for it. Does MILLIONS of damage a year across the country.

Anyhow,

When you deal with businesses who are already SPENDING MONEY as Ron pointed out, and you give them something new, different, cost effective and advertising designed for them, you get away from the Poor Tony's of the Pizzerias, and deal with the guys who can write out that check on the spot without having to think about it.

Again, it, to me, just makes sense to spend your time wisely or else you end up running all over town, dealing with people who have no business being in business, collecting deposits, getting proofs done...which is why I prefer a custom made advertorial, to eliminate the back and forth of design work.

Look, Ron is a pro. Been around but we old timers are always on the look out for ways to streamline and quicken the process.

Today, my shoe leather lasts much longer, to the chagrin of my shoe repair guy...because I quit...

CHASING THEM,

and have gotten them to CHASE ME.

or, GO ahead and get that 9x12 with 14 ads done, and try to do it before the first guys you sold to get pizzed off cause it is taking too long.

Think smart, and don't be a sheeple.

Or not.

Gordon Jay

PS. Timmy is the kid who was hired to put the door hangers on, but sometimes Timmy cheats, or has a date, and not all the doors get their ads. Maybe Timmy skips every other house. We say, don't let Timmy ruin your promotion, let the USPS Carrier do it. HA!

I get where you're coming from with the advertorial idea.
It's not where I'm heading, though.

I want only those who KNOW how they want their ad to look, cause they run it consistently.

Day in, Day out. Month after month. Year after year.

Again, I've collected the evidence. Even monitored the billboards to know who favors them.

My target has a much different mindset and I don't have to spend time educating them as to why.

They know...and I'm comfortable with that.

Once we have the format, they'll run it consistently. Graphics person will handle design work, not me.

I will do what I do best. Spend the money.

Ron

Originally Posted by GordonJ

Yes, good thinking too. I collect ads and junk mail, I imitate Denny Hatch, in my area, I know Who's Mailing What.

I too can see who is spending money or as you call them, "go-getter" businesses who
"want to spend money",
in other words, they know they have to advertise.

Now, consider this, try an ADVERTORIAL and take it to the business, show them something different they may have never seen before and walk out with a check.

Stay away from coupons but have strong action offers and a REASON why for the offer.

I'll give ONE away for everyone. Insurance.

And either roofers or basement water proofers for the back side.

On the insurance side, a little map of the Zip Codes, with red dots and/or amounts like 10k, or 3k or Car...and ask the agent what claims he has paid out in this code (could be over 5 years even)...

County Farm Insurance has Paid out over $123,987.53 to residents living in this map area. What name should we put on your check?

Then, and here is THE SECRET, tell the story of one of those neighbors, who added value to their home via a NEW ROOF and had to increase the amount of insurance.

Maybe mention HAIL DAMAGE, often a claim that doesn't get paid because the homeowner didn't want to pay a little bit extra for it. Does MILLIONS of damage a year across the country.

Anyhow,

When you deal with businesses who are already SPENDING MONEY as Ron pointed out, and you give them something new, different, cost effective and advertising designed for them, you get away from the Poor Tony's of the Pizzerias, and deal with the guys who can write out that check on the spot without having to think about it.

Again, it, to me, just makes sense to spend your time wisely or else you end up running all over town, dealing with people who have no business being in business, collecting deposits, getting proofs done...which is why I prefer a custom made advertorial, to eliminate the back and forth of design work.

Look, Ron is a pro. Been around but we old timers are always on the look out for ways to streamline and quicken the process.

Today, my shoe leather lasts much longer, to the chagrin of my shoe repair guy...because I quit...

CHASING THEM,

and have gotten them to CHASE ME.

or, GO ahead and get that 9x12 with 14 ads done, and try to do it before the first guys you sold to get pizzed off cause it is taking too long.

Think smart, and don't be a sheeple.

Or not.

Gordon Jay

PS. Timmy is the kid who was hired to put the door hangers on, but sometimes Timmy cheats, or has a date, and not all the doors get their ads. Maybe Timmy skips every other house. We say, don't let Timmy ruin your promotion, let the USPS Carrier do it. HA!

Hiya Gordon,

I'm in that FB group and many others, lol. The group itself is a pretty good group of folks. I bought the 9x12 product some time ago but haven't actually sold a 9x12.

Yep, you're absolutely correct Gordon. It does appear very time consuming for little up front reward.

There was a member last week who mentioned changing things up a bit to go after the big fish for solo mailers instead of the 9x12 and you should've seen some of the odd reactions about this poor fella's decision to move away from the 9x12 approach, who simply had a light bulb moment after speaking with a direct mail guy who mails 100K postcards a week for his clients and doing quite well.

There are a few members who have figured out how to make the 9x12 profitable and have created a nice system to get repeat customers.


There's one group in particular, that consists of a 3 member team who have cranked out 18 cards over the last year or so. They have shared some clues about how they go about it. It's pretty ingeniously simple once you piece what they're doing together and they're able to close out cards now it seems in a week with their approach.

[GordonJ]

Originally Posted by Jenn

Hiya Gordon,

I'm in that FB group and many others, lol. The group itself is a pretty good group of folks. I bought the 9x12 product some time ago but haven't actually sold a 9x12.

Yep, you're absolutely correct Gordon. It does appear very time consuming for little up front reward.

There was a member last week who mentioned changing things up a bit to go after the big fish for solo mailers instead of the 9x12 and you should've seen some of the odd reactions about this poor fella's decision to move away from the 9x12 approach, who simply had a light bulb moment after speaking with a direct mail guy who mails 100K postcards a week for his clients and doing quite well.

There are a few members who have figured out how to make the 9x12 profitable and have created a nice system to get repeat customers.


There's one group in particular, that consists of a 3 member team who have cranked out 18 cards over the last year or so. They have shared some clues about how they go about it. It's pretty ingeniously simple once you piece what they're doing together and they're able to close out cards now it seems in a week with their approach.

Thanks Jenn, groups have a tendency to follow the leader.

There is no right or wrong way, as you see Ron (a pro) and I do things differently too.

For me, it is ALL about time. I want to close a card in hours, not weeks or god forbid, months. So the question two years ago was HOW?

Answers came from many sources, the best one was from the Warrior Forum, in the form of a smaller card, few ads, lower prices.

So, I tested. And found out what a Co-Op ad card could or couldn't do for the businesses. Without meaning offense to any business, when I say bottom feeders, these are small businesses with almost no advertising budget, they often got into business without giving thought to how to get customers, it was a build it and they will come.

Most businesses could use a steady stream of new customers and keeping old ones. With newspapers dying out and print getting expensive POSTCARDS are an easy way to keep name and OFFERS in front of targets.

My research from the last two years, and this includes 2 dozen people who were doing the 9x12 card, showed:

There was a lot of running around.
There was a lot of CHASING down.
There was a lot of TIME spent in layout, design and proofing.

Several guys who had been doing the 9x12 quit because after all is said and done, they basically had themselves a low paying job, without benefits...and more than a few went back to work.

I found HOSTS, nothing new there, Don Alm wrote about this for years.
The Host sponsored the card and got advertisers on the back.
Then, I found TRADESHOWS, where thousands of people attend and

ONE card with 7 offers of at least 100 bux each, was worth more than any one card or promotion from the show, the power of the Co-Op, especially for related but non competing industries.

I found out cards sent to me for pizza shops across town were a waste of their money, by talking to drivers, owners and actually knocking on doors of people who had ordered.

A shop sending 10,000 EDDM cards, was wasting half his money, because it was too many to the WRONG place.

Also, some gurus were touting a 5% return, saying if they sent 5,000 cards, they could get 250-300 coupons redeemed. I've never seen that happen, but, it is used in phone calls.

I never have talked about performance, but a combo of branding and offers.

Today it is a Zip Zone approach, where in my area (44223) there are 11 pizza shops within the zip code, but only ONE gets on the Co-Op ZipZone mailer, it becomes a DON'T CARE SALE.

I honestly, truly, just don't care who is on the card, and I can close in one call based on that alone, WHEN I use the proper tools (a map).

So, like Ron posted, maybe ONE roofer or plumber will give you the one card. My studies showed about a 2700 net profit from the 9x12 with 14 ads which took 6 weeks.

I can get a 700 net in a day from one co-op of two guys, so it just makes more sense to ME, TO take the path of least resistance, so I could start on Tue morn (never a Mon) and be done by THUR, with a week's paycheck, and have six of those before a nine by 12 guy gets his...

but, it is whatever works.

I'm not a group guy, and don't really care what others do, I like fast, easy and less slop.

Thanks for posting,

Gordon