With all this Obama talk -- I found this cool site...

First a correction: the total is 338.3 billion per year illegal immigrants are costing us. Was a typo on my part...sorry.

This is OUR government at work...supporting those who break our laws and become, in effect, criminals by simply being here illegally. Want to know how they really repay us for our generosity? Take a look at these stats:

We spend $3,000,000.00 (that's three million of your tax dollars) a DAY to incarcerate illegal aliens. They comprise 30% of the prison population. Illegal aliens have a crime rate that is two and a half times that of legals in this country.

$200 BILLION dollars a year in suppressed wages for Americans are caused by the presence of illegal aliens. How far would that go to easing the current crisis, folks?

Ask yourself if we should have to support these criminals who don't belong here...and why in 'ell are we??? There's no way they can repay our investment with their 'willingness to work'. That argument went out the door years ago. Ask some of our legal citizens who are desperate for jobs...any jobs...if they're 'willing to work'...you'll get a resounding YES! Let's invest in Americans...not illegals regardless of where they came from. If they'd break one law to get here, more laws to stay here, more laws to work here, and many other laws while they're here, what makes anyone think that they'll magically turn out to be 'good citizens' and 'good for this country'? They're criminals...plain and simple. I can sympathize with their plight to some extent (I'm not heartless) but when it's them or us...I choose us.

Sandi Bowman

[Ankesh]

I just wish more Americans would read Grapes of Wrath by John Steinback.

Nothing more to add on the topic because I'm an outsider.

You mention Grapes of Wrath.

A fine book.

But now we can see the conditions that PROLONGED the Great Depression -- and some are coming to some revolutionary conclusions...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060936428?...89&camp=211189

Maybe FDR made things WORSE, not better.

That school of thought is gaining steam in America -- with good reason, imo.

Double check your assumptions, perhaps.

-- TW

[Dien Rice]

I look at all this another way.

The marketing power of FEAR.

One marketer whose writings I read regularly is Denny Hatch. Here are a couple very short excerpts from an article he wrote a couple years ago...

Headline: Fear: The Most Powerful Emotion on the Planet

A subheadline: Another Industry Based on Fear: Politics

You can read the whole article here... http://www.targetmarketingmag.com/ar...999/46783.html

Who is making you afraid? What do they gain from it?

Another question I would ask myself is: Do I really want to live my life lived in fear?

"A life lived in fear is a life half-lived." (A quote from a movie I saw a long time ago.)

Do you want to live a full life, or would you rather live a life "half-lived", full of fear?

Let me tell a quick story about the father of a friend of mine. My friend's father is in his 80s, and he lives out in the countryside of the state of Victoria, in Australia. It's the same place that recently has been ravaged by bush fires, which in the last month have killed over 700 people. (So it's no joke.)

My friend told me that his father was underwhelmed. The fires were "miles away", he told his son. Meaning - they were about 3 miles away from his house. (And bush fires can travel extremely fast.)

This is a man who doesn't live in fear! (He's a former Air Force man.)

My take is, you are on the receiving end of a very successful marketing campaign, designed to increase your fear. We've had many similar political marketing campaigns in recent years. Observe it, and learn from it.

There are still many "success stories" around, even in this recession. I recently reviewed some of them here - http://www.sowpub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24012

...and I plan to post about some more in the upcoming months...

- Dien

http://www.amazon.com/New-Deal-Raw-E...owViewpoints=1

Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbbPkpzAipI (Max Q, The Way Of The World) A good song with little to no air play.

Whether it's god or the bomb its just the same, it's only fear under another name.

"You show us a new way you sound so sincere
How sweet it must be to be able to think so clear
But you are just another in a long line of fools

Giving us freedom
With a new set of rules"

From Only For Sheep http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFo6kmMZr3s

Makers vs Takers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYFzTyMKLhs

Michael Ross

I just bought KeepCapitalismAlive.com

[Ankesh]

Thank You TW for viewing things from a republican / libertarian lense.

There is a dichtomy that rules all the societies of the world. The question is: Fairness vs Equality. Should the society be fair? Or should the society be equal?

If the society is fair all the time, it leads to monopoly. Because headstart is what matters in a fair society. It leads to - the rich gets richer.

On the other hand:

If the society only tries for equality - it leads to socialism. Which has been proven to not work.

USA is awesome because it only has 2 main political parties. One party stands for fairness. The other party stands for equality.

And whenever the republicans win - people say the rich will now get richer and that will be irreversible.
And whenever the democrats win - people say the country will now become a socialist country - and that will be irreversible.

USA hasn't gone to the dumps yet. And I don't see it going to the dumps ever. It'll always struggle with the dichtomy of fairness vs equality. But I don't see the catastrophic things happening that you think will happen - ie - irreversible socialism all over USA.

----

I recommended Grapes of Wrath only for getting a comprehensive perspective on the illegal immigrants problem. Not for a solution on the economy.

I think the problem comes when people confuse the word 'equal' with the words 'the same as.'

What America promises is people being treated equally. Equal rights, for instance.

But that doesn't mean society should strive to make sure everyone is 'the same' as each other. That is impossible.

The US guarantees one's PURSUIT of happiness -- one's ability to PURSUE happiness -- in a relatively UNFETTERED way. But (of course) actually ATTAINING happiness is NOT guaranteed. That's the USA disclaimer -- which only make sense.

The govt should strive to make good on that promise (pursuit) -- and it should make sure all citizens are aware of the accomanying disclaimer -- while every one shall be equal -- they will NOT end up 'the same' as each other -- in terms of 'success' -- or any other measure.

Thus, there will always be haves and have nots -- a full spectrum of 'success.'

The govt cannot (because it's impossible), and SHOULD not (because it is UNfair + immoral) level THAT playing field, imo.

Robin Hood was a CROOK!

-- TW

Gordon,

In this particular discussion, I feel like I have an advantage over you and probably everybody else on this board ... I spent 16 years as a government employee in Dade County (Miami), Florida.

I drove a bus. Then I was a transit instructor. I saw my little section of government do an incredible number of astonishingly stupid things, because money was never an issue.

Less than 15% of transit revenue came from fares. The rest came from local, state, and federal taxes. That money was taken away from the people who produced it and given to morons who produced a much bigger transit system at much bigger taxpayer expense ... and which produced even less income in the farebox.

I misspoke. I said money was never an issue. Actually, most top-level transit agency employees spent most of their work hours figuring out how to get more money. No, not thru the farebox, silly. More TAX dollars. Their mission was to squeeze more out of the residents of Casper, Wyoming and Worcester, Massachusetts, so they could expand the unused transit system in Miami, Florida.

Boondoggle. Let's move on.

George Bush was an idiot.

Barack Obama is just Little George.

When you take money from producers and give it to non-producers, you get non-production. I 100% guarantee you that Obama's "stimulus package" will stimulate a huge spurt of non-production.

But you asked for an idea, not a rant. At first I was hopeless, but I kept thinking about that over the weekend. And I have a long-term solution.

Beginning in 7th grade, and every 2 years after that, for as long as a child is in school, they would read and report on the book Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt.

A 5th-grader would understand Hazlitt's book. It was published the year before I was born (1946), so it's old as hello. But it's also timeless. You can read reviews at Amazon.

It is a life-changer. If every kid grew up understanding how economics really works, our world and our future would change.

That is my solution.

Richard Dennis