Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...

Sandi,

Thanks for towing the altruism / brother's keeper line.

Doesn't work. Nor should it be the path taken.

The simple Fact of the matter is this...

If YOU (generic You meaning, whomever it applies to) want to Do Good - to Practice Altruism; to Save The Children or whatever your cause is - then YOu go do it. On your own. Without trying to lay guilt trips onto people to have them join Your Quest.

Example Only: If you want to treat animals hurt in car incidents, go do so. Off your own bat using your own funds. Do NOT petition the local govt to pass laws to slow cars down, erect signs, put in traffic slowing devices, give money to some Sanctuary you need built and so on and so forth. Because Now you are, in essence, stealing money from others for your Good Works - having the govt do the stealing on your behalf.

Do Not propose to know what's Best for someone. You are Not their keeper.

If you go down that line like in your example, there is no stopping. So, you deem it best for them Not to buy your software. Will you also deem it best for them not to buy that six pack of beer - and then push to have laws passed according to how YOU deem things to be Best for people. Where do you stop?

Now your use of the word "Enlightened" is to paint a picture that, anyone who thinks otherwise is thus not Enlightened. And that kind of Play is a trick. A Manipulation and I call it out for the ruse it is and expose it for its trickery.

No different that other Word Tricks such as... it's naive to think... the implication being, if I think a thing I am naive; and as we don't like to think of ourselves as naive, we would thus succumb to the trick.

As Bozo said, those who preach they are "doing for others" are lying hucksters. Looking for a Good Guy Badge.

Michael Ross

Michael, no matter how you try to twist the words to suit yourself, the truth is that people can, and do, sacrifice when necessary for others...and sometimes even when it isn't necessary. Has nothing to do with distorted thinking that you choose to define altruism as.

I don't have time for this B.S. right now as I have guests coming for an extended stay and have enough work to keep ten people busy. Just say that I totally disagree with you and will until the day I die.

Sandi Bowman

Sandi,

Thanks for commenting further.

"the truth is that people can, and do, sacrifice when necessary for others...and sometimes even when it isn't necessary"

I agree, Sandi. People do - at times - do things for others without needing a Reward. But the key is... at times.

I'm sitting in a diner looking out the window. There's an old guy on one of those three wheeled electric buggy things. Sitting calmly. Then suddenly, he has gripped the control and started to reverse Fast. His face has a look of shock as he doesn't know what's going on. Because the wheel is turned, he is reversing backward in an arch. He is almost side on to the gutter now. His back wheel slips off and the whole machine tumbles down spilling him onto the asphalt.

People come running to help. They Selflessly help him. They sacrifice their time - and further appointments - to help him. And do so without thought of reward or good guy badge. They just saw someone who needed a hand and gave it.

These moments enter our lives continuously. And we enter people's lives, lend a hand, and leave, also continuously. All of us, in our own ways.

But that doesn't make us Altruistic.

Now. As per usual Sandi, you make a bunch of rebuttals - as fact - and an excuse about why you cannot continue the discussion.

"Distorted thinking I choose to define as altruism".

See. Said matter o' factly without backup. And none likely to come as "you have guests".

Now, if you look up the meaning of the word Altruism you'll see I have distorted nothing. Altruism Is the acting for the benefit of others. And it is you that simply claim I have distorted it - again, without backing up your claim and showing How I have done this.

Unbacked Up Claims. Another Trick I often see used. Usually in politics though. Any by those in Minority Groups and other Affinity Groups - be they based on race or sex or animals or environment or other.

Sandi, I know you disagree with me. And I with you. The difference is, though, throughout all our disagreements through the years I have backed up what I say. While you have Always made an excuse/reason not to continue. Not to back up what you say. When asked to do so.

Michael Ross
III

Wow - I'm a little surprised by a couple of the comments. Is that really the mentality of the business world today? Extract what you can from who you can, regardless of consequences. I hope not! I wouldn't say it's about altruism - of course we are all trying to make money - and we need to get it from somewhere ... from someone. But where is the line between making a buck and plain old human decency? I see someone who wants to do a post card mailing ... a struggling new start up - am I going to try and shove 10,000 pieces down their throat when I know they won't use that many in a lifetime? Of course not, I'm going to give them what they need. Sure, I'll make suggestions on how they can enhance the product - even if it costs more. But only if and when I think there's a benefit to them. I like to believe that there are still tons of business people out there who understand the principles of value and customer service. Upselling someone to something that is completely useless, only to make an extra buck - that's not a value, nor is it good customer service. It's the kind of thing that creates a bad reputation for the person and/or the industry he represents. Two examples ... door to door vacuum sellers. I don't know if they exist anymore, but they notoriously sold an overpriced item using high pressure tactics. They became synonomous with rip off and as a result carried a horrible reputation. (Used car salesmen too?) More recently - the (so called) housing crisis. Many of the fingers have been pointed at unscrupulous mortgage providers. People are losing their homes ... and why? Because someone didn't explain all the pitfalls of a program. They pushed clients into something risky and unstable, not caring one whit about what happens after the sale. Well kudos to them! Many of them are probably out of work because of this attitude and the entire economy has taken a huge hit too. All because someone cared more about making more money than actually doing the right thing. You may call it altruism, but I call it (what it should be anyway) standard practice. Long term success comes from offering a good product or service, good value and standing behind what you do. If you have to use deceptive tactics to move a product, then maybe it's time to consider a different one.

Now there's the whole question of personal responsibility - and I'm a huge proponant of people taking responsibility for their own actions and decisions. But that doesn't excuse people from taking advantage of their ignorance.

IMHO

Oh, and I would define a huckster as someone who peddles something of little or no value, pretending and/or intonating that there is value.

It's just that we posted at the same time!

My point was not about altruism.

Altruism is akin to charity.

There's a whole world BETWEEN charity + hucksterism!

Hey, I'm a big believer in the profit motive. Hell, I'm even a big believer in generating OBSCENE profits.

Ain't nothing wrong with turning a profit!

What my OP was driving at was crossing the line between being an entrepreneur WITH scruples to one without scruples -- as well as being able to SEE hucksters for what they are, instead of glorifying them, because you are too deluded to recognize their hucksterism.

What's the difference between a legitimate entrepreneur and a huckster?

That's hard to define. It's like art -- you know it when you see it (hopefully).

There's nothing wrong with offering something of value and getting (well) paid for it.

It's when that system starts to include ripping people off -- scamming them -- that the tide turns.

I'm suddenly becoming AWARE that there are waaaay too many THINLY VEILED charlatans out there.

Maybe they were once really trying to operate on the 'good side' (and I DO NOT mean goodie-two shoes, altruistic, warm+fuzzy helpfulness) -- but then they turned to a life of SLEAZY 'crime' by 'robbing the bank' instead of playing by the rules.

The gurus who are actually playing their audience FOR FOOLS!

THAT'S what I am suddenly becoming aware of.

I see them cloaked in all kinds of ways -- but like the final scene in The Matrix, I can now see them clearly.

Some are cloaked as well-meaning, almost-jolly, overweight, aging guru types -- some cloak themselves as middle-age, new-age surfer dudes -- and those are the creative types.

Some are so LAZY, they cloak themselves in a 'gig' that's 20+ years old + VERY TIRESOME! -- That of a wise-cracking, wise-ass, (supposedly) hip, 'edgy' take no prisoners, lone wolf, gruff, brusk, (supposedly) clever, cool marketing whiz.

How very staggeringly, colossally BORING + PREDICTABLE + TIRESOME (and UNinspired)!

Again, my point here is, there's PLENTY of space between warm+fuzzy altruism, and hucksterism.

No need to drift to either extreme.

-- TW

Michael,

Our visit with our son, a ONCE A YEAR EVENT (usually) due to school, work, and distance IS IMPORTANT. YOU, on the other hand, have ZERO IMPORTANCE in my life.

I find you to be extremely manipulative, egotistical, and with a mean streak that distorts intelligence and threads to your choosing instead of allowing the free flow of constructive comment.

I choose not to respond to you except for this statement of my position.

Sandi Bowman

Sandi,

Thanks for your Statement of Position.

Again he asks... what have you by way of Backup to your additional accusations of me?

Got any examples of this Mean Streak you reckon I have? Got any examples of how I supposedly Distort Intelligence. How about being Manipulative or Egotistical? Or is it, as I mentioned previously, you're just throwing the terms out there as if they were fact and then leave it at that.

Here's the thing, Sandi.

If you make a Statement at least have some way to back it up when asked. Otherwise, don't make the statement.

Running away when asked about your "statements said as fact", and then posturing any excuse as to why you cannot backup what you said, garners you nothing. Better to not even make the excuse.

Specially, when you have time to say you have no time, or won't respond. Why bother taking the time to respond to tell me you aren't going to respond?

Fine. You choose not to Respond to me. So be it. However, it won't stop me Questioning things that don't gel with me. Such as if someone, during this free flow of comment, says something I find Not Right.

Have the strength of your convictions - to stand by them and back them up - is my take.

Anyway. I think it pretty obvious to those who know what Galt's Gulch is, what my position is on a great many things - going by my designated Location.

Michael Ross