Don't create or modify your web site until you have read this list !

There is no Long Copy or Short Copy. There is just Copy. Its length is subjective and comparative.

A one page flyer has long copy when compared to a five line display-classified. A four page letter is long compared to a one pager. And a thirty page letter is long compared to a 20 page letter.

All that matters is, is you copy doing what it was designed to do, for the market it was designed for.

I think it was Gordon who wrote about the inexperienced plumber (inexperienced in marketing) who wrote a real simple ad which said "We do plumbing. Ph 5555-5555".

Quite frankly, the majority of longer copy bores me, for the most part. The reason is, the writer tries to write a piece that sells to everyone. Instead of writing a piece to sell to a more targetted audience.

If I have a headache I don't care about the manufacturing process used to make the headache pill, who invented it, or any "story". All that matters to me at that moment in time is

Do you sell headache pills???

Tell me quick and tell me true, or else my love, to hell with you.

The only long copy that doesn't bore me tells me something I didn't know (educates me) about the subject I'm interested in.

If you've got Ben's 7 Steps read the long Hikuta letter. It's effective, to me, for several reasons...

1: I am interested in martial arts. (if I wasn't I wouldn't read past the first paragraph)

2: It just tells me about the events that transpired with Doc's "show". And THAT allows me to SELL MYSELF.

Psychologically it's a third party telling me about it and not Doc. So I'll believe it more.

There's a Karate letter which starts off telling the reader the writer didn't take up Karate for spiritual awareness etc. He took it up because he was in to WANTON SLAUGHTER. He wanted to be able to obliterate any and all drongos who had problems with him at any time he might be out on the town.

Whatever. The point is, the length of the copy depends on how much you know about your target market and what they're looking for.

I won't even read two paragraphs telling me how to look after my dredlocks cause I don't have any and I have Zero Interest in that subject.

There's a whole lot more that can be said about copy - long and short - but in the end none of it matters. Just sit down, say what you've got to say and be done with it. See if it gets the results you want. Adjust and continue.

Michael Ross.

... not in terms of length, but in terms of how well the copy answers the potential questions of the reader.

For some products or services, the reader may not have many questions and so a short, to-the-point ad will work fine (such as "we do plumbing").

But for products where the reader will have many questions, the copy will have to be longer to answer them adequately. The Hikuta letter is a good example -- if someone is interested enough to read it, he or she will likely want to know "what's this all about?", "who invented it?", "does it really work?", "can you prove it?", "why haven't I heard of this before?", "what makes this different from ____ (karate, kung fu, etc.)?", "where can I get it?", "why should I buy it from you?", "why should I buy it now?", and on and on.

If you judge copy by the questions it answers (or creates, if you want to arouse curiosity), I venture that you'll be less likely to run the risk of having a lot of copy that misses the mark. (There's truth in the adage: "it can't be too long, but it can be too boring.")

Just my $.02

-Phil

> There is no Long Copy or Short Copy. There
> is just Copy. Its length is subjective and
> comparative.

> A one page flyer has long copy when compared
> to a five line display-classified. A four
> page letter is long compared to a one pager.
> And a thirty page letter is long compared to
> a 20 page letter.

> All that matters is, is you copy doing what
> it was designed to do, for the market it was
> designed for.

> I think it was Gordon who wrote about the
> inexperienced plumber (inexperienced in
> marketing) who wrote a real simple ad which
> said "We do plumbing. Ph
> 5555-5555".

> Quite frankly, the majority of longer copy
> bores me, for the most part. The reason is,
> the writer tries to write a piece that sells
> to everyone. Instead of writing a piece to
> sell to a more targetted audience.

> If I have a headache I don't care about the
> manufacturing process used to make the
> headache pill, who invented it, or any
> "story". All that matters to me at
> that moment in time is

> Do you sell headache pills???

> Tell me quick and tell me true, or else my
> love, to hell with you.

> The only long copy that doesn't bore me
> tells me something I didn't know (educates
> me) about the subject I'm interested in. If
> you've got Ben's 7 Steps read the long
> Hikuta letter. It's effective, to me, for
> several reasons...

> 1: I am interested in martial arts. (if I
> wasn't I wouldn't read past the first
> paragraph)

> 2: It just tells me about the events that
> transpired with Doc's "show". And
> THAT allows me to SELL MYSELF.

> Psychologically it's a third party telling
> me about it and not Doc. So I'll believe it
> more.

> There's a Karate letter which starts off
> telling the reader the writer didn't take up
> Karate for spiritual awareness etc. He took
> it up because he was in to WANTON SLAUGHTER.
> He wanted to be able to obliterate any and
> all drongos who had problems with him at any
> time he might be out on the town.

> Whatever. The point is, the length of the
> copy depends on how much you know about your
> target market and what they're looking for.

> I won't even read two paragraphs telling me
> how to look after my dredlocks cause I don't
> have any and I have Zero Interest in that
> subject.

> There's a whole lot more that can be said
> about copy - long and short - but in the end
> none of it matters. Just sit down, say what
> you've got to say and be done with it. See
> if it gets the results you want. Adjust and
> continue.

> Michael Ross.

It was 6 pm. Guests would begin arriving in an hour. My daughter's graduation was the biggest party I had ever thrown. It was perfect....

except for my husband Gary (know anyone with a perfect one?)....

Gary had to go. He used the downstairs guest bathroom. I almost fainted from the smell, then I saw the bowl filled to the brim. Gary grabbed a plunger and gave it a good workout...

"OH Sh*t! It's clogged." he said with brown water on his toes.

"NO Sh*t"," said I with towel held tightly to my nose.

I called Larry the Plumber. His magnetic business card was on my fridge, his "You Fill...We Drain" motto had a bit too much irony for me.

Larry was there quickly. He didn't stay long.

The bowl was clean, the party was great and no one knew how close to disaster we had come...except Gary, who now uses the bathroom at the corner gas station.

Need a good plumber, call Larry at 330-691-0007...then Party On. This is Mary Merry who is glad she knew Larry.
*********************
Could probably fit on a postcard, or a 30 second radio spot, or even on TV. Probably won't work on the Internet, even if it were 12 pages long and included GREAT detail.

I doubt a long letter would help either. But I may be wrong. She may read it in the powder room only to discover her imperfect husband had used the last of the TP and didn't replace it. AH, thank goodness for the long sales letter.

I'm Mary Merry quite contrary, how do my profits grow?

My products' good, my price is right and I let the people know.

M.

> I was thinking about the one on long copy,
> even long copy on a single page....

This is, btw, what the big research firms have been saying for about 3 years (I have the magazines that talk about this) -- break up copy because people read the web differently than they read print. If you look at major news sites and compare print and web editions, you'll notice that the text is broken up differently and often a bit shorter or spread between pages.

> When I read that, what popped into my mind
> specifically was Marlon Sanders' web site,
> www.amazingformula.com -- an example of
> long copy on a single page which appears to
> be successful.

Here's where I'm going to be controversial -- that page ONLY works on a select audience. It works on the people who have been "trained" that this is is a wonderful and proper presentation.

Don't know if you remember it, but months ago on Lesley's board, someone asked for a review of a site to help increase sales and traffic. It was a long (6-10 screens full) sales letter ALA Marlon Sanders. The marketing experts on the board loved it and said to tweak only a few things. I said it was WAY too long and visually uninteresting and needed to be several pages with the main points up front -- and coworkers in this designer's office (who had no contact with the Business Gurus and their marketing material) echoed my comments.

So -- if you're selling to the market that has been trained to expect this, short will be suspicious and long and filled with examples will be boring. If you're selling to others (like my grown children or my husband or a lot of other people), they expect ads to be short and sweet and want the material spread over pages and condensed and value (instead of long teasers) given. (and they want to know page counts on books, too.)

So -- my point is -- when deciding whether it's good or bad, know what your audience expects and trusts. But don't assume that the same copy will work on everyone. Put a Marlon Sanders ad in front of a buncha coding geeks and his sales will tank.

Hi Mel,

Thanks for chiming in here with a different point of view!

I've enjoyed the posts you've made on this board, but I'm going to respectfully disagree with what you say below.

The fact is that there are case studies in almost every industry under the sun where the "long sales letter" approach has worked very well. In fact, Jeff Paul was recently selling $6,000 sets of golf clubs by sending a 24 page sales letter to golfers -- most of whom don't even know what a "sales letter" is, let alone having been "trained" on them!

I think Michael made a good point that it's really not about the length itself. It's about saying all that you need to say to close the sale and keep your readers' interest, no matter how many pages that takes.

Best,

Jesse

> This is, btw, what the big research firms
> have been saying for about 3 years (I have
> the magazines that talk about this) -- break
> up copy because people read the web
> differently than they read print. If you
> look at major news sites and compare print
> and web editions, you'll notice that the
> text is broken up differently and often a
> bit shorter or spread between pages.

> Here's where I'm going to be controversial
> -- that page ONLY works on a select
> audience. It works on the people who have
> been "trained" that this is is a
> wonderful and proper presentation.

> Don't know if you remember it, but months
> ago on Lesley's board, someone asked for a
> review of a site to help increase sales and
> traffic. It was a long (6-10 screens full)
> sales letter ALA Marlon Sanders. The
> marketing experts on the board loved it and
> said to tweak only a few things. I said it
> was WAY too long and visually uninteresting
> and needed to be several pages with the main
> points up front -- and coworkers in this
> designer's office (who had no contact with
> the Business Gurus and their marketing
> material) echoed my comments.

> So -- if you're selling to the market that
> has been trained to expect this, short will
> be suspicious and long and filled with
> examples will be boring. If you're selling
> to others (like my grown children or my
> husband or a lot of other people), they
> expect ads to be short and sweet and want
> the material spread over pages and condensed
> and value (instead of long teasers) given.
> (and they want to know page counts on books,
> too.)

> So -- my point is -- when deciding whether
> it's good or bad, know what your audience
> expects and trusts. But don't assume that
> the same copy will work on everyone. Put a
> Marlon Sanders ad in front of a buncha
> coding geeks and his sales will tank.

Why don't we see them used in magazines, in newspapers, and so forth.

The other thing I should have mentioned is that (according to the high-hoohs in the ivory tower), you use different techniques for different media. A letter (paper) that's 24 pages long can be very interesting. A 50 screen long (that's how long that letter is, translated into HTML with a Times New Roman 12 point font) ad is going to be tedious to read.

TV commercials don't translate well to radio, for example. Radio spots are hard to directly translate to television and both are difficult to translate to print. I think (personal opinion) it's a mistake to treat a medium as though it was exactly like another one without considering its uniqueness. Imagine going to a website you've found in a search engine and being hit with a Flash presentation of 3 minutes of commercials in sequence just to get into the site. But we'll sit through 5 mintues of commercials on tv or flip past 10 pages of ads in a magazine.

So I'd bet that letter was just that -- paper.

Websites (which is maybe (I get confused) what this was about) are a whole different ball of wax. Or bucket of monkeys. Or something. :)

Until they tasted it! Yes, "Beer-Tank-Goo" (it's not alcoholic) makes great sandwiches! Really! (I'm not kidding.) I'll explain what I mean a bit further down....

Hi Mel, Jesse, and everyone.... :)

> Websites (which is maybe (I get confused)
> what this was about) are a whole different
> ball of wax. Or bucket of monkeys. Or
> something. :)

Wow, this is an interesting thread. :) The web is still a relatively "new" medium so I guess that's why we're having this discussion!

Perhaps what we might say from all this discussion is that there may be different rules for different characteristics of different products....

Is a product easy to understand? Difficult? Is there a lot of education involved in learning exactly what the product is?

In Australia, there's this black gooey substance that a lot of Aussies love to spread on their toast. In fact, its taste is extremely salty, and it's made from the goo that's scraped off the bottom of the tanks that beer is made in. (I'm not kidding!) It's "concentrated yeast extract."

It's called "Vegemite."

If I wanted to sell "Vegemite" to Aussies outside of Australia (where it might be hard to get), I don't need much of an ad at all. Probably "Vegemite - $2 a jar + P&H" would be enough. I wouldn't need to educate them, since they already know what it is....

But, if I want to sell "Vegemite" to Americans, it would be a tougher sales job. I'd probably have to at least write some paragraphs on what an exotic taste of Australia "Vegemite" is -- that is, I'd need to educate some more about what it really is, and why they should buy it.....

I'd probably explain how Vegemite is full of vitamin B. How in Australia, it's practically a "national" food (if you can have such a thing).

How the taste from a small scoop of Vegemite is so strong that you should spread it very thin, but if you do, the taste can be tempting.

How versatile it is.... While most people spread it on toast or use it in sandwiches, others use it curries, soups, on lamb chops, and a zillion different ways!

How Australians' love of vegemite is so strong that if you do a search for "vegemite" on the web, you'll find over 15,000 different links to the web pages of die-hard Vegemite fans.... Web pages all devoted to their love of Vegemite! And so on....

I wouldn't mention the part about "beer-tank-goo"! Though, to the right crowd, that could be a plus too! :)

I guess the point is, some products targeted at some audiences require more education to sell them than other products do.... A good sales letter (in my opinion) also educates about the product as well as its benefits.... But it depends on who it's targeted at, and some of the characteristics of the product....

I have read looooong single pages on web sites purely for interest, though admittedly I don't do it very often.... I guess it all depends on how interesting the topic is to me, and whether it's been written in an exciting way or not!

Would you sit through a whole infomercial (knowing exactly that it's an ad)?

If you're like me, you have, but only for the type of products (and benefits) that interest you. :) Most people probably wouldn't sit through most infomercials, but enough people do to make it profitable for the advertiser....

I guess my opinion here (without having tested it) is that the more difficult your product is to understand and the more expensive it is, the more difficult it is to sell it through a web page.

And the more difficult it is to sell, the more information you need to give about it to a potential buyer in order to make a sale....

I read through all of the sales letter Jesse Horowitz linked to, and I found it fascinating! But then, that's probably because it gave a lot of good tips about traffic generation, a very interesting topic to someone with a web site (like me and like many of us here)! As well as being a sales letter, it educated me too.... :)

Well, that's my two cents of opinion.... :)

What do you think? This explanation seems sensible to me -- but as always, I'm still a student of marketing.... An excited student, riveted about the topic, but as always, I'm still learning.... :)

- Dien

Dien --

We've used long and short copy on the web successfully. Our last long letter pulled well to computer users in the target audience.

The bottom line is to use as much space as necessarry to deliver the message. If it's boring and doesn't pull you along from section to section then it doesn't matter how long it is. By the same token if the person reading doesn't fit your target they aren't going to read and that's fine.

I remember one instance where our message was delivered with a single photograph. After that the "sales message" was a direct call to action. A long letter would have been able to deliver the info - but the photo in that instance said it all. The photo in question was of a flood in a South American country and a plea for help. Rather than take the time to describe the conditions we just used that photo.

Another instance involved a five-word headline. Again that was all it took to pull the target audience in to read the information we had which spanned many pages and was very detailed and involved. The click-thru response was high. In that instance we knew the total number of potential click-thrus and refinded the message till it hit in the high 90% range.

So a targeted message written to pull the potential reader along through the information and the lenght becomes less of an issue.

I'm sure Linda Caroll would have some good input here if she's lurking.

-- Dan Butler
The Naked PC


http://www.TheNakedPC.com/

Dien -

> I was thinking about the one on long copy,
> even long copy on a single page....

> When I read that, what popped into my mind
> specifically was Marlon Sanders' web site,
> www.amazingformula.com -- an example of
> long copy on a single page which appears to
> be successful.

> As long as what you're saying is interesting
> enough to your target audience so that
> people keep reading!

> What do you think?

I thought you would say that. *g* Actually, I thought the same thing. I agree with your statement though.

Rick Smith, "The Net Guerrilla"


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