What women/men want

[Ankesh]

Thanks folks for keeping up with my jargon.

I just realized that not everyone may know what a trimtab is.

Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little man could do. Think of the Queen Mary -- the whole ship goes by and then comes the rudder. And there's a tiny thing at the edge of the rudder called a trim tab.

It's a miniature rudder. Just moving the little trim tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around. Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can be a trim tab. Society thinks it's going right by you, that it's left you altogether. But if you're doing dynamic things mentally, the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole big ship of state is going to go.

So I said, call me Trim Tab.

- R. Buckminster Fuller

A big ass ships direction can be changed with little to no effort by moving the small little trimtab!

Bucky knew one little guy could change the world if he positioned and leveraged himself properly.

Dove, etc. are doing nothing to change the direction of the culture -- statistically speaking. It/they are a drop in the ocean. Others have tried to 'change' this trend -- unsuccessfully. Ugly Betty. The movie Shallow Hal. Jennifer Lopez. Queen Latifah. The new Fox show -- "More to Love" Spain. Nature.

Creates a CONTRARIAN mini-buzz... a wag the dog... then... it all gets quickly paved over and everything snaps right back to where it was before.

The term, I think, is homeostasis.

What men want -- to find out the kind of body shapes men in a society WANT to look at (yes, men do objectify women -- it's the visual thing -- cannot be changed/stopped), just look at the free marketplace of sexual attraction... ****. You'll find an extremely tall bell curve. The vaaaast majority 'going for' a particular body shape... with very little variation. I assure you, it's not the pron that is dictating the results -- it is the **** RESPONDING to the 'needs' of a society/culture. And, again, that particular, popular body shape bears no resemblance to what the 'average' body shape is. It (the culture) pays no heed to what is normal, average, natural, realisitc, etc. It wants what it wants as its current 'ideal.'

Also, there's always a fringe sector that goes for 'the opposite' that one can trot out as 'proof' of the contrarian. But it is statistically zero. Yes, there are guys who PREFER overweight women -- there are also guys who prefer amputees. All these groups have their clubs, sub-cultures, websites, etc. But they are not changing anything, in the scheme of things. They are tiny blips on the radar screen everyone just ignores.

As for the world-changers you listed (Jesus, etc.), one COULD argue that it was NOT they who changed culture/society -- but rather it was culture/society to CREATED them! Brought them into prominence + power because of a societal NEED, etc.

There's no way of knowing.

Would the boy band craze have 'taken hold' if society/culture had not wanted/needed it at that moment? There's no way of knowing.

What if those same "extremely clever" promoters had pushed an all-LEMUR band -- would that have worked too?

Can one have the goal of changing society in a PARTICULAR direction, then sit down and create that change on purpose?

One can only look at the things that did indeed accomplish that, and then dub them (in HINDSIGHT), as successful -- not taking into account that there may have been 100,000 UNsuccessful attempts by other to change society in ANOTHER direction. No conclusions can really be drawn.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by -TW

As for the world-changers you listed (Jesus, etc.), one COULD argue that it was NOT they who changed culture/society -- but rather it was culture/society to CREATED them! Brought them into prominence + power because of a societal NEED, etc.

There's no way of knowing.

This seems like a very "disempowering" way of looking at things...

Given that you say you could argue either way, why would you choose the disempowering way to look at things, rather than the empowering way?

Looking at things the disempowering way just leads to the point of view that - you can't change anything, so why bother?

Of course, if you look at things that way, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy! You can't change things anyway, so you should do nothing - so in the end, nothing changes (because you didn't do anything).

I personally do believe that there are "movers and shakers" who have changed things, in ways they wouldn't have changed otherwise. Sometimes it's (in part) due to their power of persuasion... If one person can persuade another person, then surely that one person can persuade two people... three people... a whole crowd of people... a nation of people...

Anyway, I think you do yourself a favor if you choose to look at things in a way which is empowering to you, rather than disempowering. However, everyone has a freedom of choice to look at it the way they want...

Best wishes,

Dien

Hi Dien...

I look at it both ways. Sometimes one way, sometimes the other.

Sometimes looks can be deceiving. Do you know the book Outliers?

Also, it's kind of ironic that Ankesh is arguing FOR the people-can-influence-other-people-to-change side... and I'm arguing the opposite. Usually with me and him, it's the other way around.

Can 'demand' be created -- or altered?

Hmmmm? -- I wonder sometimes. And other times I'm sure it can be.

-- TW

Actually, hip hop was pretty well established well before 15 years ago. It had been gathering momentum from the early eighties with Grandmaster Flash, the Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, The Beastie Boys, etc.

I'm just sayin'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music

"By 1986 their releases began to establish hip hop as a fixture of the mainstream. Rap and hip hop became commercially successful, as exemplified by The Beastie Boys' 1986 album Licensed to Ill, which was the first rap album to hit #1 on the Billboard charts."

Originally Posted by Ankesh

What is culture but a sum of all behavior of the masses?

Sure culture can be modified. Because bahvior can be modified. It just takes time. Don't confuse lack of speed with inability to change.

Compared to 10 years back - a lot of toilets in urban metropolitan India have toilet paper or water sprays that allow you to not use your hands to do the cleaning.

Who liked hip-hop music 15 years back? Hardly a few thousand folks? Yet today it is the most prevalent music genre out there. If that is not cultural change - then I don't know what is.

kinda sorta...

http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/p...-stunt/1338121

-- TW

Interesting.

Sandi, you posed the question then said this was not the place to discuss such things - but YOU asked the question.

Anyway. Maybe this will help you understand TW's stance...on a construction site the other week - dominated by men - a woman rigger was working. A co-worker said to me, "how do you think she'd feel knowing every guy on the site wants to **** her".

If a girl walks onto a construction site, within minutes every man knows she's there, even if they haven't seen her they've been Told by others who may have seen her - or - who heard it themselves.

Granted, in such a male dominated industry it is surprising to find a woman working in any of the fields. But that isn't why Word Spreads.

Have you seen the comedy skit by French and Saunders. They dress as two fat old guys looking at a mag with a nice girl in it. One says "I'd give her one" the other says "I'd give her two", I'd give her ten", I'd give her a hundred" and hip gestures are made. It's funny in the truth of a male dominated crib room.

TW's stance is... a man seeks something to **** and all woman unknown to the man are viewed this way.

Woman on the other hand lean towards a Provision scale.

Let me elaborate...

Men and Women were outfitted with glasses that could track where the eye was looking. The results were...

Men checked out the behind, map of tassie area and breasts and their eyes flittered between them. (Hence the joke about something on a sexy woman's face and the other guys says "I didn't get that high").

Woman were checking out the man's hands and oddly his shoes and face. Men in suits were given much longer look overs than guys in casual gear.

The results are indicative of the "men are looking for someone to ****, while woman are looking for someone to provide". It's as simple as that when stripped down to it.

And this ain't something new. Look at Islam. The entire idea of covering the woman is so the men who cannot keep it in their pants (control themselves) will not be tempted. Even with covered up women the urge is still there.

Onward.

Ankesh, the HipHop or Rap Crap market as I call it, didn't Evolve anymore than any other Popular music. The Music Giants decided THAT is the type of music they will promote and end of story.

Boy Bands don't make their way up through the pub scene and into the limelight. They are Nothing and then they are Something. ALL orchestrated and created by Big Music. Radio stations don't play Unheard of Talent to let us know what is out there. They play what they have an agreement with Big Music to play. Sure there are Some musicians whom this does not apply to - but - they aren't what makes up the overwhelming vast majority of the top 100. What makes it up are Manufactured Artists.

Look at questionably-talented Katy Perry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy_Perry from nowhere she is declared "the next big thing" and completely pushed and orchestrated into the Pop Zone by Big Music. While people who can actually sing, write songs and music and play instruments are left by the way side because they don't have a Big Music deal. HA, I'm reminded of comedian Bill Hicks (deceased) and his take on such talent and their Deal with Satan.

80s music isn't making a comeback. Its popularity to Gen X never went away. It's only that some radio stations are waking up to it, even if they already knew it before hand.

Years ago a station in Brisbane ran full page newspaper ads asking what people wanted to hear. The results where... 60s, 70s and 80s and less 90s. So what did the station do? Nothing. It continued playing 90s garbage and lost ratings. It has since - recently - started playing what it was told people wanted to hear a decade earlier and their ratings have increased. Duh!

Go to Myspace music and have a listen to Electric Mary, KDC and Cog - all from Australia. Never heard of them, right? But I'd rather listen to them and enjoy their musical skills than have a bout of Marshall Bruce Mathers III crapping on.

Mainstream Music is controlled by the big Music Companies. Period.

Onward.

Maths vs Boys vs Girls.

There are two schools in town. One a boys school and the others a girls school. Every year the boys do better at math-related topics and the girls at written topics, yet both are taught the same thing.

What is hardwired into us are basic but different survival skills. From a primitive tribe point of view, the men are the hunters the women the gatherers. Today's society has not changed. The same things that hardwired into men to make them efficient hunters are present. The same thing that's hardwired into a women to make sure her Provider and Offspring are fine are still present.

To hunt, men needed teamwork. Even if they hated each other they could work together to complete a hunt. And to formulate a plan of attack.

Women could not allow deprivation of any supply lest her immediately family was disadvantaged. This is why women bicker and fight over things men scratch their head at - about one getting more Break Time or whatever (in modern times).

These hardwired skills are what enable men - on average - to be better at math-related things while woman are better at written-related things. Our brains process information differently. It's why women can't read maps and men won't ask for directions. It's why men can take corners in a car faster than women. Our brains work differently. Coupled with our slightly different body mechanics gives us different inherent abilities mentally and physically.

Michael Ross

Men view overweight women the same way women view unemployed men.

... and for the same reason -- they cannot provide what we are after.

But neither side understands where the other side is 'coming from.' That's why John Gray's Mars/Venus books were so popular. They shed some lights on the mysteries of the 'battle of the sexes.'

A woman is perfectly capable of setting up a male friend on a blind date with a friend of hers -- while blissfully ignoring that the friend is overweight (she ignores that because -- after all -- it can't make that much difference, can it?)

It's not until after the guy meets the blind date that he realizes the woman who set it all up was obviously UNAWARE of the importance of LOOKS to men.

Similarly, a guy could set up a blind date for a woman friend of his, and ignore the fact that the man he's recommending is OUT OF WORK (he ignores that because -- after all -- it can't make that much difference, can it?).

See? Both sides completely UNAWARE of how the mind of the other side works!! Total ignorance.

The radio shock jock Tom Leykis has a saying something like this...

"A woman finds the richest man (what M. Ros is calling a man who can 'provide') her charms can attract -- and a man finds the best looking woman he can afford."

Very cynical to be sure -- but, at its root there's a lot of truth in it.

-- TW

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by MichaelRoss

Maths vs Boys vs Girls.

There are two schools in town. One a boys school and the others a girls school. Every year the boys do better at math-related topics and the girls at written topics, yet both are taught the same thing.

1.

Thanks Michael - for being logical as always.

I've actually read a bit on the math discrepancy.

And what stands out for me is this:

* There are studies done that show that men are better than women at math by a factor of 14 times!
* Then there are studies done that show that men are better at math by just a factor of 3 times.
* And then there are studies done that show that men and women are equal in math.

If what you say is true - that biological evolution has made men better at math than women - then shouldn't the rate at how better they are - be in around the same ball park every time?

After all - the rates don't change in strength or speed comparison. So why do they change so drastically for math comparison?

2.

When boys and girls are taught in the same class - their math skills come out to be very close to each other. Sometimes the women performing better than the men.

So maybe with math at least - its more about the teaching methods and the teachers expectations that is bringing out the discrepancy?

3.

Psychology experiments have shown that students do as well as their teachers expect them to do.

Robert Rosenthal and Lenore Jacobson (1968/1992) report and discuss the Pygmalion effect at length. In their study, they showed that if teachers were led to expect enhanced performance from some children, then the children did indeed show that enhancement.

Details at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

4.

So it is my conclusion that men aren't really better than women at math - at least from ability point of view. But they become better because of this expectation that many people have that men are better at math.

And because most teachers are biased with this notion too.

Given a good teacher - the math discrepancy is never seen.

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by -TW

Also, it's kind of ironic that Ankesh is arguing FOR the people-can-influence-other-people-to-change side... and I'm arguing the opposite. Usually with me and him, it's the other way around.

?

I've never argued against persuasion. Modes of persuasion - yes. But have never said that people can't be influenced.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by -TW

Can 'demand' be created -- or altered?

Yes demand can be created.

Look at Fedex. No one wanted speedier transportation of good at premium prices before he showed up. In fact - everyone told him its not something they would pay more for. And yet - Fedex worked.

Look at Steve Jobs - he always aims at delivering technologies that have no current demand. Who wanted firewire ports instead of USB ports? And a rotor instead of buttons on their mp3 players?

There was no demand for such things before Apple went ahead and invented the product and than pitched the product in ways that the demand was created and caught on.