What women/men want

[Ankesh]

And as another world changer says:

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

You brought up about hip-hop music becoming prominent in pop culture.

I'd say that evolved. The culture 'flowed' in that direction. It was an unstoppable change. No one could purposely 'arrange' it otherwise. One could not make, say, big band music become 'all the rage.'

The culture goes where it wants to go.

Same goes for the 'ideal' female body shape for 'sexual attractiveness.' It is what it is. A VERY narrow definition (in every sense of the word). I agree maybe it SHOULDN'T be that way. But it IS that way. Makes no sense. Not based on reality, what's 'normal' or average or realistic, etc. It is what it is. It has changed over time (Marilyn Monroe would be a 'fat chick' now a days) -- and I'm sure it will change in the future. All we can do is sit back + watch.

[Ankesh]

Thanks TW.

Re: hiphop - you may want to read up on the Wu Tang Clan. How they became one of the early trimtabs to bring hiphop to the mainstream and become successful themselves.

You could say that if there was no Wu Tang Clan - someone else would have taken their place to take hiphop mainstream. But who knows if you would have been right or wrong?

(On a related note: the boy band rage of the mid to late 1990s was completely manufactured by a small group of people.)

Re: dress sizes. As far as I know (and I may be wrong here): Fashion magazines were the trimtabs that drove the thin trend.

But recently - Dove is doing very well in using non-models in their ads. They are getting very good results. And I see the trend changing.

We will always witness the Rolex* effect - but should start seeing more healthier and average looking models too.

* Rolex effect = Rolex positions itself as a watch very rich people should buy. But the people who end up buying Rolexes are those folks who want to show others that they are rich.

In hindsight - you can see where all the cultural changes originate from. And if you are really passionate about the cause - and want to - you can try to bring the change yourself. (You could do what Dove did.)

Or you could just say it is what it will be. And do what you've always been doing.

But I stand with my point: cultures change. And there are people who *start* this change of culture. And you could be one of those change catalysts and pioneers if you really wanted to be.

[Ankesh]

Thanks folks for keeping up with my jargon.

I just realized that not everyone may know what a trimtab is.

Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little man could do. Think of the Queen Mary -- the whole ship goes by and then comes the rudder. And there's a tiny thing at the edge of the rudder called a trim tab.

It's a miniature rudder. Just moving the little trim tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around. Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can be a trim tab. Society thinks it's going right by you, that it's left you altogether. But if you're doing dynamic things mentally, the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole big ship of state is going to go.

So I said, call me Trim Tab.

- R. Buckminster Fuller

A big ass ships direction can be changed with little to no effort by moving the small little trimtab!

Bucky knew one little guy could change the world if he positioned and leveraged himself properly.

Dove, etc. are doing nothing to change the direction of the culture -- statistically speaking. It/they are a drop in the ocean. Others have tried to 'change' this trend -- unsuccessfully. Ugly Betty. The movie Shallow Hal. Jennifer Lopez. Queen Latifah. The new Fox show -- "More to Love" Spain. Nature.

Creates a CONTRARIAN mini-buzz... a wag the dog... then... it all gets quickly paved over and everything snaps right back to where it was before.

The term, I think, is homeostasis.

What men want -- to find out the kind of body shapes men in a society WANT to look at (yes, men do objectify women -- it's the visual thing -- cannot be changed/stopped), just look at the free marketplace of sexual attraction... ****. You'll find an extremely tall bell curve. The vaaaast majority 'going for' a particular body shape... with very little variation. I assure you, it's not the pron that is dictating the results -- it is the **** RESPONDING to the 'needs' of a society/culture. And, again, that particular, popular body shape bears no resemblance to what the 'average' body shape is. It (the culture) pays no heed to what is normal, average, natural, realisitc, etc. It wants what it wants as its current 'ideal.'

Also, there's always a fringe sector that goes for 'the opposite' that one can trot out as 'proof' of the contrarian. But it is statistically zero. Yes, there are guys who PREFER overweight women -- there are also guys who prefer amputees. All these groups have their clubs, sub-cultures, websites, etc. But they are not changing anything, in the scheme of things. They are tiny blips on the radar screen everyone just ignores.

As for the world-changers you listed (Jesus, etc.), one COULD argue that it was NOT they who changed culture/society -- but rather it was culture/society to CREATED them! Brought them into prominence + power because of a societal NEED, etc.

There's no way of knowing.

Would the boy band craze have 'taken hold' if society/culture had not wanted/needed it at that moment? There's no way of knowing.

What if those same "extremely clever" promoters had pushed an all-LEMUR band -- would that have worked too?

Can one have the goal of changing society in a PARTICULAR direction, then sit down and create that change on purpose?

One can only look at the things that did indeed accomplish that, and then dub them (in HINDSIGHT), as successful -- not taking into account that there may have been 100,000 UNsuccessful attempts by other to change society in ANOTHER direction. No conclusions can really be drawn.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by -TW

As for the world-changers you listed (Jesus, etc.), one COULD argue that it was NOT they who changed culture/society -- but rather it was culture/society to CREATED them! Brought them into prominence + power because of a societal NEED, etc.

There's no way of knowing.

This seems like a very "disempowering" way of looking at things...

Given that you say you could argue either way, why would you choose the disempowering way to look at things, rather than the empowering way?

Looking at things the disempowering way just leads to the point of view that - you can't change anything, so why bother?

Of course, if you look at things that way, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy! You can't change things anyway, so you should do nothing - so in the end, nothing changes (because you didn't do anything).

I personally do believe that there are "movers and shakers" who have changed things, in ways they wouldn't have changed otherwise. Sometimes it's (in part) due to their power of persuasion... If one person can persuade another person, then surely that one person can persuade two people... three people... a whole crowd of people... a nation of people...

Anyway, I think you do yourself a favor if you choose to look at things in a way which is empowering to you, rather than disempowering. However, everyone has a freedom of choice to look at it the way they want...

Best wishes,

Dien

Hi Dien...

I look at it both ways. Sometimes one way, sometimes the other.

Sometimes looks can be deceiving. Do you know the book Outliers?

Also, it's kind of ironic that Ankesh is arguing FOR the people-can-influence-other-people-to-change side... and I'm arguing the opposite. Usually with me and him, it's the other way around.

Can 'demand' be created -- or altered?

Hmmmm? -- I wonder sometimes. And other times I'm sure it can be.

-- TW

[Ankesh]

Originally Posted by -TW

Also, it's kind of ironic that Ankesh is arguing FOR the people-can-influence-other-people-to-change side... and I'm arguing the opposite. Usually with me and him, it's the other way around.

?

I've never argued against persuasion. Modes of persuasion - yes. But have never said that people can't be influenced.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by -TW

Can 'demand' be created -- or altered?

Yes demand can be created.

Look at Fedex. No one wanted speedier transportation of good at premium prices before he showed up. In fact - everyone told him its not something they would pay more for. And yet - Fedex worked.

Look at Steve Jobs - he always aims at delivering technologies that have no current demand. Who wanted firewire ports instead of USB ports? And a rotor instead of buttons on their mp3 players?

There was no demand for such things before Apple went ahead and invented the product and than pitched the product in ways that the demand was created and caught on.

Originally Posted by Ankesh

?

I've never argued against persuasion. Modes of persuasion - yes. But have never said that people can't be influenced.

Anyways...



Yes demand can be created.

Look at Fedex. No one wanted speedier transportation of good at premium prices before he showed up. In fact - everyone told him its not something they would pay more for. And yet - Fedex worked.

Look at Steve Jobs - he always aims at delivering technologies that have no current demand. Who wanted firewire ports instead of USB ports? And a rotor instead of buttons on their mp3 players?

There was no demand for such things before Apple went ahead and invented the product and than pitched the product in ways that the demand was created and caught on.

Thanks Ankesh.

Do you mind if I keep this post of yours in a file for use when we next have that 'other' discussion about passive mrktng vs. active? :-)

-- TW