What are "toll positions"? (A refresher post!)

[GordonJ]

OK, last week he was in LA, then headed to Miami. My opinion is he's working harder now than he ever has. But, if that is your preferred model, have fun.

Same with 68 year old Don Alm hitting the streets like he did at 35.

Whatever glove fits.

Gordon

PS You think Kennedy would be a more likely scenario??? You don't think he is gifted? ANYONE can find products, FEW can do what Dan does.

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Hey Gordon,

You probably haven't kept up with Dan much lately but after 9-11 and he got out of the "Success Tour" racket he was part of for a decade.

Over the last 10 years or so his speaking has dropped to nil outside of the annual Info Summit and Super Conference. About everything he does is done from his home between Akron and Cleveland.

All consultations take place at his home. He does virtually no traveling anymore.

His passion is harness racing and can be found at the track racing one of his many horses on an almost nightly basis.

And as far as selling, again his books have reached the point of mass acceptance and his name is widely recognized by those that may at some point require his services.

At this point Dan does one thing to keep his business afloat and that's create some content on a monthly basis. It may not be the equivalent of designing a widget and then let someone else handle the distribution and sales of the widget once it's been tested and proven, but it's probably the next best thing. And it's probably a more likely scenario for many to cross into rather than being able or gifted enough to find or create a product that is both evergreen and can be managed by someone other than the toll position holder.

Don's projects could be duplicated but very, very few have the gumption to go face-to-face, nose-to-nose and toes-to-toes in order to sell a program like he does. Face-to-face selling has become almost extinct due to a variety of reasons– the result is if Don (or someone like him) puts together a profitable program they'll have virtually no competition because no one wants to put in the work or put up with the rejection that comes with cold calling.

Originally Posted by GordonJ

OK, last week he was in LA, then headed to Miami. My opinion is he's working harder now than he ever has. But, if that is your preferred model, have fun.

Same with 68 year old Don Alm hitting the streets like he did at 35.

Whatever glove fits.

Gordon

PS You think Kennedy would be a more likely scenario??? You don't think he is gifted? ANYONE can find products, FEW can do what Dan does.

Great points as usual Gordon!

Maybe this is where the concept of the "toll booth" becomes a little fragmented.

What I mean by that is maybe we need to consider if it's a toll booth that can command .05 and one that can command $5?

Meaning that some business models are going to be more lucrative with far less work involved than others, but that doesn't mean a toll position that makes a net profit of $20,000 a year and requires a half-dozen hours of work per week is a worthless toll booth. For many folks they would be all over that.

Personally I think the "I'm the expert toll position" is in many cases more easily achieved and is easier to maintain long-term than the "find a product" toll position. In this day and age the ability to knock-off a product is beyond epidemic... which makes the lifespan of products (and a product toll position) shorter and shorter.

And while Dan is both prolific in his ability to churn out content and disciplined about doing it... keep in mind that much of his new content is simply regurgitated from earlier content and he's very good at commenting on someone else's content. I don't fault him for that, it's how I would do it. That doesn't make him gifted. If makes him sharp for knowing what he can get away with while doing as little as possible in the way of brand spanking new content creation.

I've got a toll position product that does reasonable well for me. But it sure wasn't easy nor inexpensive getting it started. In addition you many times need additional funds to achieve market acceptance.

Yeah, you can go the wholesale route but that arena is filled with tiny margins and demanding retailers.

As far as what Don does, once you get an advertising product off the ground, and if it makes sense in the market, reselling existing clients/customers on the idea will become easier over time. Again, is this a $5 toll? No. But for many who would like a toll position and neither have the funds to develop their own products nor the time to become a "I'm the authority" toll position holder, the Don Alm approach is better than a sharp stick to they eye-socket.

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

At this point Dan does one thing to keep his business afloat and that's create some content on a monthly basis. It may not be the equivalent of designing a widget and then let someone else handle the distribution and sales of the widget once it's been tested and proven, but it's probably the next best thing. And it's probably a more likely scenario for many to cross into rather than being able or gifted enough to find or create a product that is both evergreen and can be managed by someone other than the toll position holder.

Originally Posted by GordonJ

PS You think Kennedy would be a more likely scenario??? You don't think he is gifted? ANYONE can find products, FEW can do what Dan does.

Most of info products are not really toll positions. You don't have to buy any of Dan's product to learn about writing successful sales letters or how to create "attention-grabbing" headlines. However, if you want to buy HIS product, he will get a cut (unless it's through a secondary market).

On the other hand, creating a platform where you sell other people's products or perhaps getting exclusive rights to their product(s) would be a toll position.

PS. I really like this thread. Thank you for bringing this subject up.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Most of info products are not really toll positions. You don't have to buy any of Dan's product to learn about writing successful sales letters or how to create "attention-grabbing" headlines. However, if you want to buy HIS product, he will get a cut (unless it's through a secondary market).

On the other hand, creating a platform where you sell other people's products or perhaps getting exclusive rights to their product(s) would be a toll position.

PS. I really like this thread. Thank you for bringing this subject up.

I agree that it does depend on how unique, as well as how desirable, the information is... Perhaps also how strong the "brand" is...

For example, "How To Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie was first published in 1936 - which was 79 years ago... And I believe it's still making money today! (The copyright now seems to be held by Donna Dale Carnegie, who is Dale Carnegie's daughter. She wasn't even born yet when the book was written!)

But on the other hand, there are plenty of books published in 1936 that nobody cares about today... Not every toll position is equal!

One thing about some good toll positions is that - if they know how to work them - the toll positions can keep making money for your kids, and even possibly your grandkids...

Best wishes,

Dien

Originally Posted by Thomas

Most of info products are not really toll positions. You don't have to buy any of Dan's product to learn about writing successful sales letters or how to create "attention-grabbing" headlines. However, if you want to buy HIS product, he will get a cut (unless it's through a secondary market).

On the other hand, creating a platform where you sell other people's products or perhaps getting exclusive rights to their product(s) would be a toll position.

PS. I really like this thread. Thank you for bringing this subject up.

Good input Thomas.

Keep in mind a couple things about the info products Dan puts out...

First off he's joked that he wishes that "Ultimate Sales Letter" and "Ultimate Marketing Plan" would go away!

Why?

Because they've "How to's" and not "advocacy" books which represent virtually every other book he's written.

The selling of info products is not DK's prime focus.

His prime focus is to get the $19,000.00 initial consulting fee and then put the wheels in motion for at least a $100,000 copywriting/consulting gig– which many times includes royalties.

For a full understanding of the Dan Kennedy "process" I would suggest his "Influential Writing" workshop that he put on in 2007... I think you would find it to be a real eye-opener!

Keep in mind Dan has talked about "toll position" (and Brody's course) during a couple of his seminars. And he purchased the rights to Dr. Maxwell Maltz's information, which is one way of getting a "toll position"– buy an existing toll position!

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Good input Thomas.

Keep in mind a couple things about the info products Dan puts out...

First off he's joked that he wishes that "Ultimate Sales Letter" and "Ultimate Marketing Plan" would go away!

Why?

Because they've "How to's" and not "advocacy" books which represent virtually every other book he's written.

The selling of info products is not DK's prime focus.

His prime focus is to get the $19,000.00 initial consulting fee and then put the wheels in motion for at least a $100,000 copywriting/consulting gig– which many times includes royalties.

For a full understanding of the Dan Kennedy "process" I would suggest his "Influential Writing" workshop that he put on in 2007... I think you would find it to be a real eye-opener!

Keep in mind Dan has talked about "toll position" (and Brody's course) during a couple of his seminars. And he purchased the rights to Dr. Maxwell Maltz's information, which is one way of getting a "toll position"– buy an existing toll position!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this...! Fascinating!

So (to make it clear) - his books are the "front end"... The consulting, copywriting, and possible associated royalties are the "back end"... and where he makes the "real money"...

As for Maxwell Maltz, yes, I think Dan Kennedy and a bunch of others (I think Jeff Paul was also involved) did buy the copyright to Maxwell Maltz's "Psycho-Cybernetics"... I think they even put out a new edition - "The New Psycho-Cybernetics."

Of course, that's only one toll position product. I don't know what they paid, but if they got a good deal, they would have gotten many times their money back, and I'm sure they're still making money from it now. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting many toll positions... There's no reason to stop at just one.

The problem I see with consulting is that you get paid... and that's it. In most cases, you have no further "ownership" of your work. (Copywriting at the "high end," where you can also get paid royalties for sales, may be a little bit different from other types of consulting regarding this - but only as long as they keep running your ad... Plus, it's not like you can provide the same ad to a different client if the first client tires of it.)

With a "product-based" toll position, you can potentially get paid for a longer period into the future... The other thing is, when you "own" the toll position, there are also other things you can do with that. For example, if you owned "Psycho-Cybernetics," you could put out an audio version (they've done that already), make a movie out of it, or a documentary, or have it included as part of a larger collection of similar works (with books or articles owned by others), create a version for teenagers, you could license out excerpts of it to be reprinted in promotional materials, turn the book into a paid seminar tour, have a "Psycho-Cybernetics" coaching program (where others do the coaching under your license), if you have a list of customers, there are further things you can do with that list, create collaborative works, e.g. a Rich Dad / Psycho-Cybernetics product, or a Donald Trump / Psycho-Cybernetics product, etc. For all these other ideas, you can get others to do the work, because you own the valuable "toll position" - so they can't bypass you.

Best wishes,

Dien

Originally Posted by Dien Rice

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this...! Fascinating!

So (to make it clear) - his books are the "front end"... The consulting, copywriting, and possible associated royalties are the "back end"... and where he makes the "real money"...

As for Maxwell Maltz, yes, I think Dan Kennedy and a bunch of others (I think Jeff Paul was also involved) did buy the copyright to Maxwell Maltz's "Psycho-Cybernetics"... I think they even put out a new edition - "The New Psycho-Cybernetics."

Of course, that's only one toll position product. I don't know what they paid, but if they got a good deal, they would have gotten many times their money back, and I'm sure they're still making money from it now. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from getting many toll positions... There's no reason to stop at just one.

The problem I see with consulting is that you get paid... and that's it. In most cases, you have no further "ownership" of your work. (Copywriting at the "high end," where you can also get paid royalties for sales, may be a little bit different from other types of consulting regarding this - but only as long as they keep running your ad... Plus, it's not like you can provide the same ad to a different client if the first client tires of it.)

With a "product-based" toll position, you can potentially get paid for a longer period into the future... The other thing is, when you "own" the toll position, there are also other things you can do with that. For example, if you owned "Psycho-Cybernetics," you could put out an audio version (they've done that already), make a movie out of it, or a documentary, or have it included as part of a larger collection of similar works (with books or articles owned by others), create a version for teenagers, you could license out excerpts of it to be reprinted in promotional materials, turn the book into a paid seminar tour, have a "Psycho-Cybernetics" coaching program (where others do the coaching under your license), if you have a list of customers, there are further things you can do with that list, create collaborative works, e.g. a Rich Dad / Psycho-Cybernetics product, or a Donald Trump / Psycho-Cybernetics product, etc. For all these other ideas, you can get others to do the work, because you own the valuable "toll position" - so they can't bypass you.

Best wishes,

Dien

Hey Dien,

No question a consulting toll position is a different animal from a product toll position.

Different strokes for different folks kind of things. Some prefer sitting on the couch eating Cheetos while their product or products sell without their involvement.

Yes in the consulting toll position it's a swop time for money thing, but there's a certain amount of "Hey I'm a celebrity (in my niche)" kind of thing and some like that.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go.

I'd rather see folks just get out and try to find their own toll position in whichever area appeals to them... but I'm probably getting way ahead of myself.

Quite honestly I think getting or earning a toll position is pretty hard. It's most likely not going to happen without a lot of time and other resources invested– at least for a "big potatoes" toll position.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Personally I think the "I'm the expert toll position" is in many cases more easily achieved and is easier to maintain long-term than the "find a product" toll position.

Thanks Mike... it's true, being the "expert" is also a type of toll position. That's why some consultants can get very highly paid... People feel that those consultants have expertise they need, and which they can't get from a cheaper consultant!

A quick example is Denny Hatch. He's an expert in direct response marketing, including copywriting. He took down his web page with his consulting fees, but you can still see the old version from 2013... At that time, he charged $700 per hour, or $5,000 per day, to consult with you about your business and marketing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130530...tons/fees.html

He can charge $5,000 a day - and get it - because he has a strong "expertise" toll position...

Of course, there are many others who get even more... and they can get it due to their strong toll position as an expert...

In this day and age the ability to knock-off a product is beyond epidemic... which makes the lifespan of products (and a product toll position) shorter and shorter.

I think it depends on your protection. For example, it's extremely easy to "knock off" Mickey Mouse, and print Mickey Mouse T-shirts for example. However, you don't see too many of them around - at least in "Western" countries. The reason why is because Disney will legally defend their "toll position" and quickly put these knock-off artists out of business, and make sure they are heavily fined.

However, you need to have the toll position in the first place in order to do this!

In countries where protection for copyrights and trademarks is weak, it's a different story... But that doesn't mean you can't still make a lot of money, for long periods of time, in the many countries (including the USA) where the "rule of law" is strong...

Thanks Mike!

- Dien

Originally Posted by Dien Rice

I think it depends on your protection. For example, it's extremely easy to "knock off" Mickey Mouse, and print Mickey Mouse T-shirts for example. However, you don't see too many of them around - at least in "Western" countries. The reason why is because Disney will legally defend their "toll position" and quickly put these knock-off artists out of business, and make sure they are heavily fined.

However, you need to have the toll position in the first place in order to do this!

In countries where protection for copyrights and trademarks is weak, it's a different story... But that doesn't mean you can't still make a lot of money, for long periods of time, in the many countries (including the USA) where the "rule of law" is strong...

Thanks Mike!

- Dien

No question Dien copyright infringement laws (and others) are a great deterrent.

But first you need to have that "toll position" product in order to have something to protect.

Which brings me back to my whole point in all this... I think creating or finding or building a "toll position" is a difficult thing to pull off.

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Which brings me back to my whole point in all this... I think creating or finding or building a "toll position" is a difficult thing to pull off.

Hi Mike,

I think different "toll positions" (obviously) have different values... For example, owning the copyright to "Psycho-Cybernetics" or "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" is probably more valuable than owning the copyright to a book all about an obscure Australian radio play that ran in the 1930s/1940s. (A friend of a friend co-wrote the book I'm talking about - and he and the other author really struggled to sell copies, because it's about such an obscure interest!)

However, valuable toll positions can be bought, or you can do a deal. I recently purchased a set of audiobooks (in a non-business niche), produced by an expert in that niche, in which I'll own the copyright outright. The author put a lot of time and effort into it, and spent more money than I paid for it (and that doesn't even count the hundreds if not thousands of hours of his time), and it's a good product... it even got good reviews in established magazines in that niche. However, it's with these kinds of products where having some sales/marketing skills can really help... There are many people out there who create "toll positions" with great potential, who can't market them. If you can't or don't want to buy them outright, many of them would be open to a profit sharing type of deal. If you do this, just make sure you get the agreement written on paper (that contract will be your toll position!).

Best wishes,

Dien